The Legbar Thread!

[blackbirds13]

Yes, congratulations. It's going to be a great time next year seeing what everyone's got going on. It's New Years Eve y'all!




Does anyone have a web hosting plan they really like and would recommend I'm not happy with the one I'm working with now? PM me please. Thanks.

 

[KPenley]

Happy new Years Eve to you too! I love your snow birds!

 

[nicalandia]

All of the auto-sexing breeds can have "an odd dam (hen) or so" that will produce irregular markings or non-uniformity in down patterns (See quotes below).

I´m not talking about non uniformity down patterns, I´m talking about a headspot on the females...its on your SOP that females should have a clearly defined headspot.... I have seen more than a dozen CL female chicks(Pics of this site) with a headspot..

this is NOT the case for Welbars or Rhodebars. go to their respective threads and see if you can spot one of them, you will find none..

this issue is further aggravated by an undocumented gene that is making the male´s chick donw Dark instead of a diluted pale chick down....


Autosexing should be easy, a grandma with glasses should be able to see the difference. but at this stage some lines of cream legbar are Semi autosexing at best and not autosexable at worst..

here just a sample of how bad this is. Source https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/732903/legbars-what-is-their-sex

autosexing should be this easy... lighter diluted males with a headspot, dark wildytpe looking females. EASY..

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:

autosexing should be this easy... lighter diluted males with a headspot, dark wildytpe looking females. EASY..

I'm sure that there has been a lot of indiscriminate breeding of these birds here in the US from the onset. And I think we have more than established that our birds in general have some issues and maybe more than a few undocumented genes. Those look like two boys to me as the head spots are too large and the body color not definitive enough compared to the females I hatch, including those with headspots that are easy to discern as such. Not everyone knows or cares what they are doing and for those that do they may want to cull for the head spot and others will not, like myself as it is not an issue with my flock. I understand your disagreement with the UK SOP but it works for me and in general from what I see out there despite a few pics here and there. I just wonder about the real ability to eliminate this from the breed wholesale.
Have a sparkling evening!

 

[nicalandia]

Those look like two boys to me

same here, one male looks darker than the other, I would keep the lighter one

I understand your disagreement with the UK SOP but it works for me and in general from what I see out there despite a few pics here and there. I just wonder about the real ability to eliminate this from the breed wholesale.

well I´m not in a complete disagreement with the UK SOP, aslong as the Males are much lighter than the Females, this is the case for autosexing breeds like the Golden Maran, where both the males and the Females have a headspot, but the Males are Much lighter than the females.. I would just cull the dark males or keep them out of the breeding pen..

here check the "Golden/Gold cuckoo Maran" chicks, the Males are much lighter than the females..so yes you can keep the females with the headspot(as per UK SOP) just cull the dark males

 

[GaryDean26]

its on your SOP that females should have a clearly defined headspot....

I am curious. I just read the original UK standard for the Cream Legbar as printed in the 1959 Auto-sexing poultry associations annual and it does NOT say anything about the head spot (Pullets or Cockerels). It simple states under down type "As the Legbar". To my knowledge the standard has not changed since 1959. Can anyone with a copy of the Poultry Club of Great Britain standards confirm what is printed for the down color?

So...after reading that the CLB down should be "as the Legbar" I pulled out the color plates of day-old chicks from Michael Pease's 1954 Sex-Linkage in Poultry Breeding publication and it shows Gold Legbars pullets that have the a dark chocolate stripe from the head down the back, with the tan dorsal stripes and NO head spots. This is the same as what most of the CLB's I have hatched look like. The cockerel image for the Gold Legbars shows wings and head that are nearly yellow and the the strip down the back is a Cinnamon color that starts at the neck and moved down the entire length of the back. The cockerel also have dorsal stripes, but they are thinner than the pullets dorsal stripes. This is much lighter than what I have been hatching.

The Silver Legbar on the other hand is quite different. The image of the Silver Legbar Pullet has the dark chocolate stripe starting on the head, but below the neck it is the lighter Cinnamon color between the dorsal stripes (but the chocolate color out side the dorsal stripes). This pullet does has the defined head spot on the head. Further Pease in describing the Silver Legbar down color said the follow in another publication:

Quote on Silver Legbar Down Color: Michael Pease, 1951 Auto-sexing Poultry Association Annual
The Cream Legbar down is not included is Pease's 1954 publication, but in the section following the Silver Legbar in the 1951 Auto-sexing Annual he said the following about the Cream Legbar down color.

Quote on Cream Legbar Down color :Michael Pease, 1951 Auto-sexing Poultry Association Annual

So...back to my curiosity.... What genetically is different between the set of Gold Legbars used as the examples in the 1954 publication by Michale Pease and the set of Silver Legbars used in that same publication? They clearly show Gold Legbars with out the head spot on the pullets, but the Silver Legbars pullets with the Head spot. The discription confirm that isn't just from an "odd hen" either but consistent in the silver varriety and consistently not in the Cream Variety of this breed.

Any ideas on whether the down color for the "correct" adult plumage of the Cream Legbar should be closer to the gold or the Silver Legbar? Cream dilutes is a similar fation to silver, but I am not sure if the cream gene would effect the down color like the Silver apparently did in these examples.


Note: in the 1954 publication there are images of 16 pairs of chicks.

Light Sussex Hen X RIR Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Light Sussex Hen X Brown Leghorn Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Light Sussex Hen X Buff rock Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Gold Cambar chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, NO
Barred Rock Hen X Brown Leghorn Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, YES
Barred Rock Hen X Light Sussex Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, YES
Gold Legbar Chicks: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, YES
Silver Legbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, NO
Gold Dorbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Silver Dorbar Hen X Gold Dorbar Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Gold Legbar Hen X Gold Cambar Cock: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Gold Legbar Hen X Silver Cambar Cock: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Gold Brussbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Silver Brussbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Light Sussex Hen X Gold Brussbar Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Light Dorbar Hen X RIR Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO

 

[blackbirds13]

Sorry greengravy, Those two are both boys.

-GaryDean26-

__________________________________________________________


Quote:

The Cream Legbar down is not included is Pease's 1954 publication, but in the section following the Silver Legbar in the 1951 Auto-sexing Annual he said the following about the Cream Legbar down color.

Quote on Cream Legbar Down color :Michael Pease, 1951 Auto-sexing Poultry Association Annual

So...back to my curiosity.... What genetically is different between the set of Gold Legbars used as the examples in the 1954 publication by Michale Pease and the set of Silver Legbars used in that same publication? They clearly show Gold Legbars with out the head spot on the pullets, but the Silver Legbars pullets with the Head spot. The discription confirm that isn't just from an "odd hen" either but consistent in the silver varriety and consistently not in the Cream Variety of this breed.

Any ideas on whether the down color for the "correct" adult plumage of the Cream Legbar should be closer to the gold or the Silver Legbar? Cream dilutes is a similar fation to silver, but I am not sure if the cream gene would effect the down color like the Silver apparently did in these examples.


Note: in the 1954 publication there are images of 16 pairs of chicks.

Light Sussex Hen X RIR Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Light Sussex Hen X Brown Leghorn Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Light Sussex Hen X Buff rock Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Gold Cambar chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, NO
Barred Rock Hen X Brown Leghorn Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, YES
Barred Rock Hen X Light Sussex Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, YES
Gold Legbar Chicks: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, YES
Silver Legbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, NO
Gold Dorbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Silver Dorbar Hen X Gold Dorbar Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Gold Legbar Hen X Gold Cambar Cock: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Gold Legbar Hen X Silver Cambar Cock: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Gold Brussbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Silver Brussbar Chicks: head spots pullet, YES, head spot cockerel, YES
Light Sussex Hen X Gold Brussbar Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO
Light Dorbar Hen X RIR Cock: head spots pullet, NO, head spot cockerel, NO

The down color for the Cream is "as the Silver" in the 2008 British Standards for poultry and the 1997 version also.

In the British Poultry Standards they list the specifics for down color for both Gold and Silver. The Cream is listed as 'See Silver'. The down color for the silver includes the mention of the head spot. The Cream would then reflect this same allowance.
I would surmise that the down color for silver and cream chicks is more gray in tone than for the gold chicks.
The color description is listed as follows...

The gold: down colour

Brown stripe type. The stripe - same as below
The ground color should be dark brown, though distinctly paler than the stripe. A pale ground colour and a narrow or discontinuous stripe are to be avoided. A light head spot should be visible, usually it is small...
Male: The down colour is much paler in shade, the pattern being blurred and washed out head to rump.


The silver: down colour

Female: Silvery-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clerarly defined, not blurred and blending with the ground colour - the sharper the contrast, especiallly over the rump the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinous strip should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing brightly against the dark background.
Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out form head to rump: it may best be described as pale silvery-slate

The cream: down colour

As silver.


I am going to surmise that the chicks need to more silvery-slatey-grey than brown-tinted no matter how light they are. Lighter is great for the autosexing/barring but the tone of that lightness is what will determine correct adult plumage, in my opinion and from what I see with my flock. I have a few questions that I'd like to throw your way Niclandia as soon as I get the pics sorted through. I have ideas in my head I cannot find all the words/terms to so hoping you can help solidify or nullify some thoughts I have. Thanks.

Happy New Years Day!!!

 

[KPenley]

I wonder if we can trace when the down requirements changed in the UK SOP for Cream Legbars. In the 1954 literature mentioned above, Pease wrote that Silver Legbars were created the same way as Gold Legbars. They were just culled in the original creation of Gold Legbars. Perhaps because of the head spot since autosexing was the goal. but that is entirely speculation on my part.

I'm fine if I'm the only one in this boat...but I think we should have an end goal of the silvery/grey (with brown and black stripes) down I've seen lately with no white spot for the girls. It's possible. We've seen the pics.

Happy New Years!

 

[1muttsfan]

As a CL beginner, I am somewhat confused - the down color is supposed to be "as the silver legbar" and the silver pullets have a head spot? Don't the CL cockerels have the head spot, not the pullets?

 

[blackbirds13]

As a CL beginner, I am somewhat confused - the down color is supposed to be "as the silver legbar" and the silver pullets have a head spot? Don't the CL cockerels have the head spot, not the pullets?

The head spot is very small and diminutive what they call 'defined' on the pullets. Silver and Gold are paired genetically so the color tone is what makes them different down wise.
I'm not particular about the spot as I have not found it problematic personally and I have enough on my plate just trying to achieve what the UK SOP states the birds should look body, type and color wise to really worry about the head spot at this time. I'm not sure how possible anything is with this breed with so many divergent opinions and breeding goals but it'll help us all know what really is and is not possible in the long term with such a wide scope of outcomes. I think it's great and will help future buyers and breeders to be aware of what they need to be looking for and thinking about...at least those that care about that sort of stuff.

This is a female chick with 2 male chicks - male then female then male. Notice how tiny the stripe is on the female head but the dark stripe goes all the way down from comb to tail. the male body color is more smudgey and the spot larger and more diffused around the edges. Some males also have another lighter area on the back of the neck like the top most male's back head.
This female turned out with very light colored hackles, not perfectly cream but so very close that that the gold tinge is hard to discern at times. The red light is affecting the color a bit and this was and iphone pic...sorry. The boy on top is going to be more colorful than the boy on the bottom from what I see them as juveniles right now - redder shoulders and golder hackles and saddles and deeper gold areas on his secondary feathers.