The Legbar Thread!

[nicalandia]

Who can know the thoughts of anyone?

I suspect that they used the Barred Rock because they already had been working with the breed--that was the stock they had and they already understood the genetics. They had published a paper already on the 'Gold Barred Rock': http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/19/337.pdf

SO: Perhaps it was easier for them to autosex using a breed that had more distinctive barring reather than cuckoo, maybe they were able to obtain the original stock more easily, maybe the birds themselves were easier to handle, maybe they like the dual-purpose nature of the Barred Rocks, maybe they used the red ears as a secondary visual marker, maybe there were less unknown genetics hidden in the Barred Rocks whereas the Leghorns were more muddled making their experiments harder? Any or all of the above and probably some that I have not thought of.

Correct...

the same can be asked, why did they use Barred Rocks instead of "Crele" Leghorns? seeing how crele is an old color, and keeping it close to the breed standard

 

[Habibs Hens]

With all due respect, I am not intending to 'rip' in to your post, but rather present a second point of view for you to consider--please be patient there are several parts.

What I have heard you say is that what the Americans are working with is not a 'Real' Cream Legbar and anything that does not meet your understanding of English breed standards is not 'real'. You have also said that the eggs should be blue (even though your own standard is for blue, green or olive) so I have to admit I am a little confused. You have politely suggested that 'we' discard everything we have and start over with 'quality' stock and were disappointed when we pushed back at you and did not want to take your advice as you are just trying to be helpful. From my point of view, the most helpful thing you could do is to volunteer to approach breeders of quality stock and convince them they need to go through all of the hoops and expense on their end to get their flock acceptable as an exporter. That is the hard part for us and if there was a readily available source or list of breeders that is able to ship to 'Joe-Shmo' in the US, 'we' could pool our resources and ship direct. Perhaps when your lovely eggies hatch and grow out next year you will be kind enough to volunteer to do this for us as we clearly need help.

What I really wanted to point our is that any breed, when imported in to a new country, will by necessity go through some adaptive change:

- One influence is breeder preference--what they think is pretty or useful. Use Marans as an example. The French standard (and they are a French breed) calls for feathered shanks yet the English version calls for clean shanks. Why the difference? Not sure. But I suspect that the Majority of English Marans breeders would take offense if a frenchman told them that they don't have 'real' Marans. There are other expamples I could go in to detail on (Brahmas and Wyandottes are American but have undergone changes in the UK and look different from the 'real' breed standard and then there are the Heritage vs German New Hampshires to look at). Now one could take a postition of all of those foreign exports as being not 'real' examples of the breed, or I suggest another approach and look at them as beautiful examples of the English or German or whatever version of the certain breed in question.

Since you brought it up, perhaps we could have a discussion sometime when you have a few days about all the variations of Araucanas--its not as simple and starighforward as you may think.

-Another change is the necessary physical adaptations that have to take place for a bird that comes from one environment and has to adapt to another. It could be that birds that are of the best type did not hatch or die in transit because they are not as hardy as a more wild-type bird ( I won't even go in to the possibility of epigenetics).

Lets compare and contrast England vs just my state in the US. England is a Goldilocks Utopia. Its climate is relatively even and that is what the Cream Legbars have been bred for/raised in. I live in Colorado (CO) on the front range. The lowest elevation in CO is about 3300ft. At 5100 feet, my home is about 1000 ft higher than the highest point in the UK. Last year my highest temp was 103 F (40 C) and my lowest was -29F (-34C) and our average annual precipitation is 15 inches total (yes its very dry here with accompanying low humidity) and we are very sunny with around 300 sunny days a year. My point is that in my location I have to have chickens that will survive and thrive in very hot and very cold weather at a higher altitude and a dry climate. If the ideal breed standard for CL can't make it in my climate, then I will have to make due with whatever hardy facsimily can survive. If what lives strays too far from breed standard it will not be a CL. But if what survives here is a darker pigmented (dark-barred) chicken that still has two copies of the cream gene and reasonably fits the breed standard, I fail to understand why it is not a CL anymore given that a clean shanked Marans is still considered a Marans.

I kindly suggest that you may want to set a spell and try to put my moccasins on, walk around and think what my point of view might be. How hard is it to import birds? How hard is it to breed birds that are not adapted to my climate? Are there examples of other breeds that have small changes and thrived in a new country with modifications from the original breed? I have always found it helpful to consider the point of view of other folks and to seek what their reality is insetad of simply cleaving to my own point of view. I appreciate you presenting your thoughts and point of view for consideration and I hope that you are willing to consider my points and perspective as well.

You put many points across

firstly I don't recall talking that CLB Must have Blue Eggs (what I have said is UK breeders strive to achieve a Blue egg as its more desirable. Green acceptable and any other colour a no no.

I will how ever disagree with adaptation. Firstly UK weather can be very erratic and we do get some very high and very low temps

The Joke in UK is the 3 Ws you can't rely on (no offence to anyone) Work [loose it at any time] Wife [Leave you at any time] and WEATHER [Can change at anytime]

and I believe that the domestic chicken is the most adapted animal in the world reaching all continents in domesticated form. as to staying the same well many introduced animals are striving in many counties unchanged and they have adapted. one I can think of is the Jackel in Australia. (or is it the Dingo) I cant recall.

as for the CLB well it has 3 main blood groups in it a Leghorn, BPR (USA Original) and Araucana of Chile (which is south America) so if the breed that punnet developed cant survive in USA im quite surprised and even further surprised that the 3 individual breeds are currently surviving

As for Marans, it has 3 standards the English marans which is clean shanked the French which is Feather Shanks and then the Bantam and are judged in their respective class. so you cant enter a French into a standard class and vice versa

And the Araucana is again in its own class for many reasons referred to as the British Tailed Araucana. The tufts bred out to make keeping them a safer hobby as we all know tufts is a lethal gene in 2 doses and I love the araucana but would take a step back at trying my hand at hatching the lethal gene variety as I couldn't take the upset. im not a araucana historian or expert but then I do believe that the rumplesness started off a mutation that was standardise in USA for the Araucana only where as UK kept it

But hey where not here to argue which country is better

I have been looking into exporting the CLB once I get them up to par for the least possible cost and may have found a way (hope immigration don't read this)

UK we have a PET passport system where you vaccinate your pet, get it tested in UK get a microchip and get issued a certificate that your pet is free from anything and get issued a pet passport literally. then you can take your pets to any county that support the PET Passport scheme which out quarantine or export import costs. just the cost of a animal plane (cargo Ticket) you can collect your pet the same day you land.

Here in UK we support animals coming in with correct document and they land and go to the ARC (Animal Reception Centre) at Heathrow Airport and you can collect same day.

Dogs get sold in this manner and get cargoed to UK for the new owner to collect.

So if USA supports that all you do is take a TRIO along that are laying and leave the Eggs that are layed behind while you are having your stay in the country. once your holiday is over all you do is take your trio back.

and in effect your not breaking any law as your doing all by the book and your animals are vaccinated and tested for illness before you leave it just all done in UK prior to leaving. or the country that originate from when coming to UK


TBH we could go into so much in so much depth and argue our valid points for ever but that not what the point it here so lets just try get along to what we can do to better the breed rather than argue

I wonder why when creating the normal Legbar their creator used the "Barred Plymouth Rock" instead of the Cuckoo or Barred Leghorn? the cuckoo leghorn traces its history way back at 1870

as far as im aware the BPR was what was available at the time in punnets flock

a lot of his documents and casework refers to what he had in his flock that he was breeding with rather than choosing particular breeds for the job

one main thing is the Autosexing an sexlink was discovered by accident (well not accident) but the birds where bred and it was after hatch and then studying that Punnet realised what he had achieved and from there went on to refine it.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
My guess, because Punnett was a scientist not a breeder. Punnett did not set out to make a chicken breed that would be recognized and fashioned after the Leghorn. He was trying to understand color genetics of chickens and chose breeds that were interesting to work with, novel or ones that he knew the genetics of to avoid adding in too many variables.

When setting up an experiment, it is best to have a known set of parameters then only change a single one to be able to have clarity as to what is contributing to the data. Starting with a black barred bird is easier than starting with one that has red enhancers or whatever the many variables are with the barred gold duckwing (or whatever the base is for the crele) especially if you have worked with the barred bird before, know what is going on with its genes, and the barring is crisp and easy to visualize.

There must be a reason behind your question. Why do you think he used the Barred Rock instead of a different breed (do remember he used the Campine for some of his experiments)?

 

[dretd]

You put many points across

firstly I don't recall talking that CLB Must have Blue Eggs (what I have said is UK breeders strive to achieve a Blue egg as its more desirable. Green acceptable and any other colour a no no.

I will how ever disagree with adaptation. Firstly UK weather can be very erratic and we do get some very high and very low temps

The Joke in UK is the 3 Ws you can't rely on (no offence to anyone) Work [loose it at any time] Wife [Leave you at any time] and WEATHER [Can change at anytime]

and I believe that the domestic chicken is the most adapted animal in the world reaching all continents in domesticated form. as to staying the same well many introduced animals are striving in many counties unchanged and they have adapted. one I can think of is the Jackel in Australia. (or is it the Dingo) I cant recall.

as for the CLB well it has 3 main blood groups in it a Leghorn, BPR (USA Original) and Araucana of Chile (which is south America) so if the breed that punnet developed cant survive in USA im quite surprised and even further surprised that the 3 individual breeds are currently surviving

As for Marans, it has 3 standards the English marans which is clean shanked the French which is Feather Shanks and then the Bantam and are judged in their respective class. so you cant enter a French into a standard class and vice versa

And the Araucana is again in its own class for many reasons referred to as the British Tailed Araucana. The tufts bred out to make keeping them a safer hobby as we all know tufts is a lethal gene in 2 doses and I love the araucana but would take a step back at trying my hand at hatching the lethal gene variety as I couldn't take the upset. im not a araucana historian or expert but then I do believe that the rumplesness started off a mutation that was standardise in USA for the Araucana only where as UK kept it

But hey where not here to argue which country is better

I have been looking into exporting the CLB once I get them up to par for the least possible cost and may have found a way (hope immigration don't read this)

UK we have a PET passport system where you vaccinate your pet, get it tested in UK get a microchip and get issued a certificate that your pet is free from anything and get issued a pet passport literally. then you can take your pets to any county that support the PET Passport scheme which out quarantine or export import costs. just the cost of a animal plane (cargo Ticket) you can collect your pet the same day you land.

Here in UK we support animals coming in with correct document and they land and go to the ARC (Animal Reception Centre) at Heathrow Airport and you can collect same day.

Dogs get sold in this manner and get cargoed to UK for the new owner to collect.

So if USA supports that all you do is take a TRIO along that are laying and leave the Eggs that are layed behind while you are having your stay in the country. once your holiday is over all you do is take your trio back.

and in effect your not breaking any law as your doing all by the book and your animals are vaccinated and tested for illness before you leave it just all done in UK prior to leaving. or the country that originate from when coming to UK


TBH we could go into so much in so much depth and argue our valid points for ever but that not what the point it here so lets just try get along to what we can do to better the breed rather than argue

For me, a chicken must thrive not just survive. There will be necessary adaptations to any new environment: I have taken a class or two about animal physiology including a very interesting one called Environmental Effects on Physiology taught by a charming English prof named Dr Robertshaw. You are welcome to dismiss my opinions if you like, but they are based in science. I will respectfully agree to disagree about the weather as well. They say the same thing in Colorado about the weather changing. For me last week, we had temps in the 70's then it dumped 22 inches of snow and was 9F the next night. An order of magnitude different.

As for your pet scheme, I would advise against it, no need breaking the law although it will be the US citizen getting the fine. Here is what the USDA has to say about chickens as pets http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/nonus_pet_bird.shtml :
Pet Birds The USDA defines pet birds as those that are imported for personal pleasure of their individual owners and are not intended for resale. Birds which the USDA defines as poultry, including doves and pigeons, are not considered pets and are imported under different rules.

No getting around it. The US is a nation of laws, now more than ever since 9/11. Chickens are legally defined as livestock (poultry) and even if you name them, microchip them, paint their nails and tie ribbons around their necks they will always be livestock and are regulated as such--and for good reason. One chicken imported that is diseased could risk billions of dollars of livestock and ruin farmer's livelihoods for years to come. Really not worth the work-around especially when there are legal channels to do it right that safeguards US flocks.

 

[nicalandia]

When setting up an experiment, it is best to have a know set of parameters then only change a single one to be able to have clarity as to what is contributing to the data. Starting with a black barred bird is easier than starting with one that has red enhancers or whatever the many variables are with the barred gold duckwing (or whatever the base is for the crele) especially if you have worked with the barred bird before, know what is going on with its genes, and the barring is crisp and easy to visualize.

this is correct, the issue I have with this is: Crele or Silver crele Leghorns are wildtype birds with sexlinked Barring, with Austosomal Red on some lines but most dont have it. by that time(Punnett) there were many genes not known to the world, many of these genes are hidden under the Extended black e allele of the Barred Rock. but I believe he did it because he knew how to pull it off

There must be a reason behind your question. Why do you think he used the Barred Rock instead of a different breed (do remember he used the Campine for some of his experiments)?

He probably believed he could get a very Crisp Barring on the legbars, something he had not seen on the Cuckoo leghorns or or in the Crele(gold or silver) leghorns..


at the time there were few people working on "True" Barring Leghorns, most European liked the dark "Cuckoo" Leghorns, or didnt understand the genetics of how to produce "Barred" patterned Leghorns, Few people do it now(understand) and even Fewer people knew it around that time, these few "Barred" Leghorn were called Dominique Leghorns..

just take a look a today's "Barred" Leghorns, I dont think Dr. Punnett had these type of birds at hand, but still wanted the "Crisp" Barring of Barred Rock, too bad its nearly impossible to have such crisp barring on a crele pattern




Compared to the "Old" Cuckoo Leghorn you can see the Crisp difference

 

[nicalandia]

Now the Gold Crele Leghorn




Silver Crele Leghorn




and the "Golden" Crele Leghorn(S/s+ not Cream)





as you can see in the following drawing the gold/silver/golden crele leghorn birds can be sexed at hatch



if Crele leghorns(Silver or Gold) were sexable or autosexing at hatch why did the creators of the "Legbar" was crated? isnt the legbar name derived from two words, Leg for Leghorn, and Bar for Barring? but the legbar(gold,silver, cream) were not the first leghorn with the barring gene, heck they were not the first "Autosexing" leghorn,

So why would anybody had to introduce the Barring gene from the Barred Rock and cross it with a light brown leghorn to create a Crele looking leghorn breed? well I guess they did it just because they could. I refuse to believe they didnt know the crele leghorns were autosexable

now the Created Cream Legbar has a different look to the other Legbars, they have nice creast and they lay blue eggs, so they are cool in my book

 

[graciesmum]

Ohhh, they are very cute. I am amazed at how fast they grow!  Looks like you have a nice little set-up for them!

thank you this is there day time run, and the coop and run they will go in once there feathers are through, during the night they live in my front room in a brooder I built for them, my 5 bigger girls are in a shed I converted, these are my first ever chicks and they are so cute, but soooooooo addictive lol

 

[CibolaChooks]

with all due respect to everyone's preference

but this is the whole point of the cream Legbar breeders group

to get the Cream Legbar to be as close as possible to what it was first bred as

and dark bar was not what was meant to be for the Cream Legbar

don't get me wrong if you want dark bar then you go for it

but then it wont be a true Cream Legbar


Just as the Araucana is a breed that is referred to as Araucana, True Araucana and the Ameraucana (all being different variations)


if you choose to breed a Dark Cream Legbar the first thing is it wont be classed as cream colour second you would have to submit it into the APA for consideration and even then it would prob be recognised as a different breed variety rather than a Cream Legbar brining in the New name for Real Cream Legbars to True Cream Legbars



So in the spirit of correction of this breed I think its in the best interest if all breeders to strive to create the correct Legbar not a personal preference one (not that im saying you cant, yes you can, but it wont be a CLB)


(now to see how many people rip into this post)

I was making the same point. a cpl weeks back.

 

[CibolaChooks]

So that's why my point here is lets just strive and stick to what is supposed to be a TRUE Cream Legbar

One would have to, to get back to the true Cream legbar form and color. Id like to see us all reach the true version and keep it as so. After that I'm more than open to making hybrid's but the stock should be TRUE first. otherwise you risk taking the CCL further and further from the original due to personal preference. After all, we all feel in love with the original. It would suck to start changing it before we ever make it back to the start..

are we so sure there is two type of barring in our stock. Are we certain that there just isn't light and dark versions of one type of the barring. Has anybody had a single cream gene cl that look darked barred but after they breed it with another single cream Cl and the offspring have two copy's does those two copy cl still look to be dark barred, or once they get two copy's of the cream do they all the sudden look to be light barred. Maybe its just the double cream changing the look of the barring.

If i had got on the Cochin thread and posted pics of my roos last year you would have seen a dark roo and two light roos. If i suggested there was two types of barring they would have laughed me off the thread. The darker roos barring was more defined and looked more like the color of the Hens. but the good barring was in certain places like his chest and not his wings and tail.. The two lighter roos had different light barring. The one was lost and the 2nd roo was the one i ended up keeping. he had lighter color to his whole body but had really really defined barring. I'm just thinking that there was so much difference in barring on my barred Cochin why would we automatically suspect we have two different types of barring in these CCL.

If you breed barred rock they would all have really nice barring on a constant basis. but if you breed barred Cochin they will come out with different looking barring per bird per hatch per pairings. Why do we think they should all be the same like a barred rock. and if they are coming out with different variations of barring and color why do we think its two types of barring and not just like the Cochin's the type of barring that you work hard at culling to get it right.

 

[ChicKat]

Seems to me that nobody actually knows what the original R.C. Punnett birds looked like - Here is a quote from him regarding the Cream Legbar: --

Although I don't have the EXACT quote at hand, Punnet said 'it is a brown leghorn on a cream base' -- It isn't the cream that is so much in question for our good USA birds it is the dark barring - I have said this a lot, slate is a very dark shade of gray. -- The pale gray that some folks are pushing isn't slate.

So google images of brown leghorn. Substitute the lighter feathering with cream -- -- I'm not 100% certain, still that the UK birds with the very pale gray barring has the right coloration. Does anyone have an actual photo in color from Punnett's flock?

Okay - here is the exact quote:


“It may be described as a Brown Leghorn on a cream basis, to which has been added the barring factor causing it to be autosexing. It is also crested and lays a blue egg”
R.C. Punnett 1957