The Legbar Thread!

[nicalandia]

Quote:
thats the issue.. the Barring gene found on some Cream Legbars do fade their color to a Silver looking birds. EDIT... you dont Have to have the Cream Gene to have Visually Cream lolored birds This is a B/B s+/s+ crele male: no cream on him, but no red enhancers either

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
you just have to Train your eyes to look for clues... and Here I will post them.... Dark Barred Rich colored Cream Legbar, with the cream gene in it(ig/ig B/B and e+/e+ ofcourse) will look like a Crele looking bird, meaning you will disntinguish the pattern very well, their Breast will look Black/dark grey Barred and their hackles and saddles will be rich lemon colored, while the shoulders will show(depending on red enhancers) darker orange tones.. now a light Barred rich colored cream legbar with cream gene in it(ig/ig B/B and e+/e+) will look like Henk's crele dutch male but lighter straw color on the hackles and saddles.. now a Light Barred none red enhanced(ig/ig B/B and e+/e+) will look like the pic I posted here of that near silver looking bird. but keep in mind he is not Silver Crele.... his breast is very diluted bluring his crele pattern Edit Old Post of mine......
Quote:

 

[nicalandia]

now to the how does Cream Interacts with red enhancers?...

well it seems that the cream gene is affected the most on the shoulders and whing triangle, while is still capable of diluting the hackles and saddle...

here take a look at this cream leghorn from holland, he lacks any red enhancers and also have a white wing Triangle

Geelpatrijs Leghorn from Holland

now some Red enhanced cream birds...

henny rooster at the bottom

 

[ChicKat]

Don't Gold & Silver Legbars lay a white/tinted egg? So they aren't Gold or Silver Legbars. Allow both color varieties (bring eggs for verification!!!! LOL) in the Standard within parameters. Either extreme overly colored, or no color are too extreme. There's a balance that allows for degrees of both.


http://www.tanyaschooks.com/goldlegbar.htm
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/

How I love it when I am gone for awhile and a lot happens!!! whoo HOOO!!!

The "correct" color of the rooster will have to be established some day. I asked Walt Leonard of the APA,who is super busy right now - but graciously took time to respond, if we could do exactly as TheTropix suggested and have two varieties of Cream Legbars.....and he said...."The APA would probably not go for two varieties of Cream."

Which is very unfortunate, because, if they would then the "problem" could be easily solved as some have alluded to here in the thread...the light/white birds that some think are correct -- (Somehow, I think that came from the .... particular face book group that discusses CLs and I don't do facebook.) and the perhaps trickier to obtain but definitely closer to the 'stunning' bird that a lot of us picture as Cream Legbar roosters, that could never be confused with cuckoo Marans etc. for example.

1. in our history of the CL https://sites.google.com/site/thecreamlegbarclub/20-history-of-the-cream-legbar I have lifted this quote at the very end of the last column on the page on the Club's website
"After he retired Punnett learned of Pease’s cream discovery. To see if the cream color in the Legbars was the same gene in Punnett’s Creams, test matings were conducted between Punnett’s Creams with Pease’s Cream colored Legbars. Their offspring proved cream colors in both lines were from the same gene. The offspring resulting from the fusion of the two cream lines were selected for crests to distinguish them from Gold and Silver Legbars, blue egg laying ability, and clear markings for the auto-sexing feature. Punnett introduced these Crested Cream Legbars to the world at the London Dairy Show in 1947."


Therefore in 1947 the way to tell the Cream Legbar from the Silver and Gold was the Crest and the Blue egg laying ability. Did the Pease or Punnet flock favor one or the other ends of the spectrum?
The gold and silver colors without the crest seem from our history in our Club's website to NOT be the determining factor.

2. In other breeds of poultry, Cream does not look silver: Cream Brabanters https://www.google.com/search?q=cre...GoiwigLk9YEo&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1814&bih=934. Grant you that the Cream of the Cream Legbar is lighter than the Cream Brabanter, due to the double barring gene. If the birds that people are calling "gold" didn't have double barring gene they wouldn't be autosexing. (correct me if I am wrong on that one Nicalandia or other genetic wizards).

3. Not every breeder in the UK favors the very light version of the CL rooster.... In this post there is discussion on three varities of CL rooster:
http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15999   Cream Legbars -...
Please follow that link and review the three 'varities' of Cream Legbar. (not the first set where the person is saying which rooster should I choose, but a bit farther in the thread where there is an example of very light, medium and dark varieties of the CL)

4. If Punnett intended the Cream Legbar to be Silver, then why didn't he call it the Crested Silver Legbar? -- It would nearly make as much sense to me to work to gain APA acceptance for a Silver Legbar as a Gold Legbar, and please understand that I have overwhelming respect for

KPenley's insights and work on behalf of the breed, so I'm a bit confused as to where the idea to discard some of the birds originates.

As TheTropix said the birds in question are crested, and the hens they produce lay blue eggs, so they are NOT Gold Legbars.

5. Here's a quote from Punnett: "It may be described as a brown leghorn on a Cream basis to which has been added the barring factor, causing it to be autosexing. It is also crested and lays a blue egg." R. C. Punnett 1957. To my eye, cream is more like OAC857, or OAC7-- but I wouldn't mistake OAC909 for cream. If Punnett had said in the above quote a brown leghorn on a silver basis -- we wouldn't need this discussion, but he didn't.

Here's my conclusion, since the APA won't accept two versions of cream, one only needs to be decided for the standard. I haven't seen real evidence that Silver and Cream are the same, and the evidence I have seen points more to the contrary. It may be wise to suggest to the Cream Legbar Club that a task-force is set up to zero in on what is actually 'correct' for the plumage of the male.

 

[dretd]

1. in our history of the CL https://sites.google.com/site/thecreamlegbarclub/20-history-of-the-cream-legbar I have lifted this quote at the very end of the last column on the page on the Club's website
"After he retired Punnett learned of Pease’s cream discovery. To see if the cream color in the Legbars was the same gene in Punnett’s Creams, test matings were conducted between Punnett’s Creams with Pease’s Cream colored Legbars. Their offspring proved cream colors in both lines were from the same gene. The offspring resulting from the fusion of the two cream lines were selected for crests to distinguish them from Gold and Silver Legbars, blue egg laying ability, and clear markings for the auto-sexing feature. Punnett introduced these Crested Cream Legbars to the world at the London Dairy Show in 1947."


Therefore in 1947 the way to tell the Cream Legbar from the Silver and Gold was the Crest and the Blue egg laying ability. Did the Pease or Punnet flock favor one or the other ends of the spectrum?
The gold and silver colors without the crest seem from our history in our Club's website to NOT be the determining factor.
****
Here's my conclusion, since the APA won't accept two versions of cream, one only needs to be decided for the standard. I haven't seen real evidence that Silver and Cream are the same, and the evidence I have see point more to the contrary. It may be wise to suggest to the Cream Legbar Club that a task-force is set up to zero in on what is actually 'correct' for the plumage of the male.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post.

I think the key may be in your sentence you had highlighted in red italics that I bolded: the crest was added to distinguish the Cream from the Gold and the Silver.. If this is indeed the case this tells me that the Cream as developed by 1947 could resemble both the Gold and the Silver enough that there might be questions about which one it is if it didn't have the crest. So some males will look very silvery and some will look gold depending on the base color genetics the cream is layered over/diluting.

So this second suggestion of zeroing in on what the rooster should look like implies there is only one ideal to shoot for. But if the comment in the first summary is correct, there is really a spectrum of colors that are allowable. Which I am sure is why the original SOP said softly barred Cream, some chestnut allowable or however it was worded. The only problem is that when this is translated into American it implies that chestnut is allowed but not desired. I think the wording may need to be Americanized to reflect that the chestnut is not just tolerated but part of the normal spectrum of color in the Cream rooster. Just don;t know how to say it properly. Having a judge help with the wording would be smart so the color statement doesn't get biased one way or another.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
this much is correct... but its interesting that a pure CCL roo mated to say a light brown leghorn hen would produce autosexing chicks... or if you cross a light brown roo to a CCL hen it will produce Autosexing looking chicks while their true identity would be sexlinks... food for thought... perphaps Punnett's cream legbars had the dark barring type instead of the normal barring genes or even the lighter barring genes. Punnett had to know even at that time(long ago) normal barring does dilute the ground color, it turns gold into a straw color

 

[KPenley]

ok, you gals caught me...I MISSED a typo in the history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The original quote by Professor Michael Pease is:

"An interesting new autosexing variety is the Cream Legbar. The cream colour is indistinguishable to the eye from silver; but cream is, for reasons given on page 2, none the less a form of gold. It may be thought of as an extremely diluted gold. The Cream Legbar has a crest, which distinguishes it readily from the Silver Legbar. It has proved to be a prolific layer; its most striking peculiarity is that it lays blue eggs. The sex-distincion in the downs is the same asthat in the Gold Legbar (Plate 11c)."
(Pease, Michael M.A., Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Bulletin No. 38, Sex-Linkage in Poultry Breeding, Other Varieties, page 8)

Page two just talks about the relationship between Silver and Gold, and reiterates that cream is diluted gold. So our history should not read that the crest distinguishes from both gold and silver, just silver.

Pease acquired all of Punnett's and his test birds when he moved on to other projects, so they are essentially the same.

@Nicalandia: Pease actually suggested breeding Legbar Roosters to Brown Leghorn Hens if you needed to improve or diversify blood line! It's interesting that you would mention that!

Edited to add: I love you too Kathy

 

[GaryDean26]

2. In other breeds of poultry, Cream does not look silver: Cream Brabanters https://www.google.com/search?q=cre...GoiwigLk9YEo&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1814&bih=934. Grant you that the Cream of the Cream Legbar is lighter than the Cream Brabanter, due to the double barring gene. If the birds that people are calling "gold" didn't have double barring gene they wouldn't be autosexing. (correct me if I am wrong on that one Nicalandia or other genetic wizards).

3. Not every breeder in the UK favors the very light version of the CL rooster.... In this post there is discussion on three varities of CL rooster:
http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15999   Cream Legbars -...
Please follow that link and review the three 'varities' of Cream Legbar. (not the first set where the person is saying which rooster should I choose, but a bit farther in the thread where there is an example of very light, medium and dark varieties of the CL)

It may be wise to suggest to the Cream Legbar Club that a task-force is set up to zero in on what is actually 'correct' for the plumage of the male.

now to the how does Cream Interacts with red enhancers?...

well it seems that the cream gene is affected the most on the shoulders and whing triangle, while is still capable of diluting the hackles and saddle...

here take a look at this cream leghorn from holland, he lacks any red enhancers and also have a white wing Triangle

Geelpatrijs Leghorn from Holland

Yes, I would like to have a task force to determine what Cream should look like on a Legbar. I really wish we had some of these beautiful Cream Leghorns in North America to be used by this task force in their discovery. I know FMP removed the barring from some of his Leghorns to see what they looked like under the barring. We may have to enlist him on this task force.

 

[ChicKat]

Yes, I would like to have a task force to determine what Cream should look like on a Legbar. I really wish we had some of these beautiful Cream Leghorns in North America to be used by this task force in their discovery. I know FMP removed the barring from some of his Leghorns to see what they looked like under the barring. We may have to enlist him on this task force.

Beautiful bird... my Google translator translated the name to 'yellow partridge'.

 

[ChicKat]

ok, you gals caught me...I MISSED a typo in the history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The original quote by Professor Michael Pease is:

"An interesting new autosexing variety is the Cream Legbar. The cream colour is indistinguishable to the eye from silver; but cream is, for reasons given on page 2, none the less a form of gold. It may be thought of as an extremely diluted gold. The Cream Legbar has a crest, which distinguishes it readily from the Silver Legbar. It has proved to be a prolific layer; its most striking peculiarity is that it lays blue eggs. The sex-distincion in the downs is the same asthat in the Gold Legbar (Plate 11c)."
(Pease, Michael M.A., Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Bulletin No. 38, Sex-Linkage in Poultry Breeding, Other Varieties, page 8)

Page two just talks about the relationship between Silver and Gold, and reiterates that cream is diluted gold. So our history should not read that the crest distinguishes from both gold and silver, just silver.

Pease acquired all of Punnett's and his test birds when he moved on to other projects, so they are essentially the same.

@Nicalandia: Pease actually suggested breeding Legbar Roosters to Brown Leghorn Hens if you needed to improve or diversify blood line! It's interesting that you would mention that!

Edited to add: I love you too Kathy

Kestlyn -
you are the BEST!!!

Any chance a link to the above article could be made available? Also if anyone has the British Standard for Poultry - could someone paraphrase the information that is on page 54 and pass it along to the membership??
ETA-- I think I mean BYC forum