The Legbar Thread!

[Thespoiledchicken]

About the white gene and it's expression. Here is my experience with it. I had a white rooster and a hen who was a carrier. I was expecting to get 50% white offspring from this pairing. However, much to my surprise only about 10% of the offspring were white. This perplexed me that I was not seeing more white birds.

Then the white rooster was eaten by a coyote. Unfortunately, I did not have enough hatches to have any sort of statistically significant numbers or come to any conclusions. I thought there was maybe a higher mortality that may be associated with the whites. Or, I thought maybe I just sucked at counting.

So, I have a white hen and a white rooster who are about 1 month away from laying/ maturing so I can continue this experiment.

But, I do have a suspicion based on very limited experience that the a white legbar may be the result of a combination of genes or something more complex that just a dominant/recessive straight forward relationship.

Anyone else have anything similar? Anyway, very interesting that someone else has a much lower than expected appearance of whites.

I will update as the whites mature.

This is really interesting!

I wonder if this is what was also happening with my guys. I had a trio of Whites and a trio of Creams all penned together for breeding. Every chick I hatched from them (about 40) was Cream when I was expecting at least some Whites. I'm not 100% sure my Cream roo is carry the recessive White gene but a pretty good chance of it and the same thing with my Cream girls. I was really surprised none were White

Also if I remember correctly I think it was maybe Mary from TheBucknRun Ranch??? that was hatching alot of Creams from her birds and was surprised when she finally hatched a White. I remember reading it thinking that was strange she hatched so many Creams and it took so long for her to finally get a White when her group clearly was carrying the recessive White gene. Maybe someone can PM her and ask what her experience was with % of Whites hatching vs. Creams

So interesting...

 

[dretd]

About the white gene and it's expression. Here is my experience with it. I had a white rooster and a hen who was a carrier. I was expecting to get 50% white offspring from this pairing. However, much to my surprise only about 10% of the offspring were white. This perplexed me that I was not seeing more white birds...

But, I do have a suspicion based on very limited experience that the a white legbar may be the result of a combination of genes or something more complex that just a dominant/recessive straight forward relationship.

Anyone else have anything similar? Anyway, very interesting that someone else has a much lower than expected appearance of whites.

I will update as the whites mature.

According to the paper I linked to, the retrovirus (what inserted the recessive white genes and blue egg genes) causes decreased production on many levels. I suspect the embryos are not as vigorous and thus the eggs fail to develop resulting in a lower apparent ratio than expected. There may me more involved including there are two mutations on the same chromosome so that if one is expressed one it causes slight problems but together they are additive? As you said, interesting to speculate.

Interesting thing is that some breeds of dogs have a recessive white that crops up (ieAussies and Border Collies) and it can cause deafness--these dogs may be culled by breeders and dis-allowed by breed standards.

Some research with sea birds, noted a more saturated pigment in their eggs with increases in beta carotene in their diet. I have purchased beta carotene capsules, tried feeding carrots, and sweet potatoes to my hooligans..etc...to see for myself. My birds aren't big on their veggies..... They will turn up their nose if they don't like something. Perhaps supplying more beat carotene to the birds will give them what they need to produce more eggs? Just a thought..if their diet were to be altered, they would have more raw materials.

If green in the blue produces a greater number of eggs in a year, it is likely that there will be more birds hatched with genetic combinations that give that greenish blue. So -- maybe at some point we decide "what do I want?--- many eggs, or pure-blue eggs". Maybe some of each? I remember reading on a UK website, I think it was Emily de Gray's that they were hoping for 180 eggs per year....as kind of a standard. (an egg every-other-day). My pullet is laying at an amazing rate...her eggs are still small 1.6 to 1.7 ounces thus far. Yesterday afternoon - a high pressure flew through and the temps were 99-degrees with high humidity-- so the chickens were all panting -- so my egg production may go down due to the stresses now mounting on the chickens...but I do like those plentiful eggs. However, if she were to continue at her current rate she would exceed 180/yr by a lot, unless she were to go broody.

Seems to me like those of you who are observing these things and doing the research have noted that 1. pure-blue eggs will probably be less frequent than the bluish-green...so continuing the counts is going to be very informative. 2. Just because of the statistical rarety thus far from lonnyandrinda's and RyeRanch's flocks, there is a more complex genetic combination that simply recessive white producing the white chickens.

My chickens refuse to eat carrots, too! And its 12 degrees here this morning with 25% humidity (it was in the 70's just a few days ago--typical Colorado Weather) so its hard to imagine 99 and humid!

The blue egg paper I referenced reviewed the origin of the pigment and they concluded it was deposition of biliverdin from the egg gland alone with no contribution from the liver or heme (blood)--there had been speculation about the other sources. It further states that the blue color in some ducks eggs may be different than chickens (needs further study) and the blue eggshell gene in Quail is recessive and therefor for sure different so I don't think we can draw parallels bout wild bird blue egg coloration without study.

It is always interesting to speculate on possible causes of different genetic traits. For an adequate genetic survey, you need a LOT of chicks hatched, and unhatched eggs have to be included in the reference population (to help determine if a trait is associated with early embryonic death). I have received quite a few shipped eggs that were a nice clear blue that were not from white birds. The greenish tint on eggs is due to the deposition of pigment on the surface of the egg, most likely due to some genetic impurities (meaning there were brown- or cream-egg ancestors somewhere in the background and the brown pigment was not vigorously selected against). Green eggs have just as much blue pigment as blue eggs, just altered in appearance by the deposition of pigment on the egg surface, so it is hard for me to believe that the blue pigment itself is causing lower egg production in just the blue egg laying birds. Instead, I think it may be related to either selective breeding for appearance without regard to egg production, that the breeds involved just do not lay as many eggs, or both.

There were Barred Rocks used in the Development of CL so its logical that this is the origin of any brown pigmentation. Just to muddy the waters even more, there was a paper put out by the Marans club that talks about color inhibitors making the dark eggs more pale. Unfortunately that paper gives me a 404 so it must have been taken down. IT is possible that the variation in the amount of green could be due to the presence of the inhibitor genes not the lack of brown pigment genes. Speculation, yes. Plenty of areas for genetic research, for sure.

I think that your statement about selecting for blue eggs over production is very astute and wise. My biggest concern with CLs as we refine the US breed, is that important production traits (size and frequency of the eggs--which is the second most important thing for me with any chicken) will be minimalized when it should be as important as many traits and, for me, more important than a crooked comb in a roo for instance.

My adult layers that are all over a year old lay some monster eggs...bigger than any other breed I own. My Marans eggs look pathetic compared to my Cream Legbar eggs

That is really amazing--now those are good genes to keep!

 

[nicalandia]

I had read that the blue egg laying breeds in South America, where our Ameraucanas and Araucanas originated, were suspected to have come from Polynesia chickens introduced in to South America prior to the European colonization of the Americas.

this is correct. the Rapa Nui natives are polynesians and they brought with them their native stock to the Easter Island, and as weird as it may sound, Easter Eggers and the Rapa Nui(Easter island) share many genes and are closely related to one and other

 

[SusanRenee]

So interesting. I have heard that the blue-egg layers in the USA, Araucanas and Ameraucanas are often low-volume egg layers. Also, that it is 'expensive' to the birds anatomy to lay blue eggs. The pigments required 'take more out of the hen'.

Some research with sea birds, noted a more saturated pigment in their eggs with increases in beta carotene in their diet. I have purchased beta carotene capsules, tried feeding carrots, and sweet potatoes to my hooligans..etc...to see for myself. My birds aren't big on their veggies..... They will turn up their nose if they don't like something. Perhaps supplying more beat carotene to the birds will give them what they need to produce more eggs? Just a thought..if their diet were to be altered, they would have more raw materials.

If green in the blue produces a greater number of eggs in a year, it is likely that there will be more birds hatched with genetic combinations that give that greenish blue. So -- maybe at some point we decide "what do I want?--- many eggs, or pure-blue eggs". Maybe some of each? I remember reading on a UK website, I think it was Emily de Gray's that they were hoping for 180 eggs per year....as kind of a standard. (an egg every-other-day). My pullet is laying at an amazing rate...her eggs are still small 1.6 to 1.7 ounces thus far. Yesterday afternoon - a high pressure flew through and the temps were 99-degrees with high humidity-- so the chickens were all panting -- so my egg production may go down due to the stresses now mounting on the chickens...but I do like those plentiful eggs. However, if she were to continue at her current rate she would exceed 180/yr by a lot, unless she were to go broody.

Seems to me like those of you who are observing these things and doing the research have noted that 1. pure-blue eggs will probably be less frequent than the bluish-green...so continuing the counts is going to be very informative. 2. Just because of the statistical rarety thus far from lonnyandrinda's and RyeRanch's flocks, there is a more complex genetic combination that simply recessive white producing the white chickens.

Thanks for contributing your insights --

ETA, if the white CLs are a marker for the pure blue - that could generate a market by itself. They are definitely very pretty birds - and if people wanted guaranteed blue-- then a white CL could be a good choice for them.

Try shaving your carrots, mine turn their nose up at any sort of a chunk, but peelings are hugely popular.

 

[CibolaChooks]

I almost got some White Marans egg last week to use for test mating but held off since the incubator was full (I might see if I can get any at the Poultry Show this weekend).

If I get any white to pop out I will be keeping them to test breed my foundation stock and other breeders as needed (although the White Marans will work better because I won't mix the white carrier eggs with the Legbar hens by mistake.

To get the White Legbars both the hen and the cockerel have to have the white gene gene, so it sounds like Hugger has the white gene. I am guessing that only one of his parents had the gene it since you haven't seen any white up to this point. How many hens were in the flock Hugger came from? The more hens the more likly that it was from him mother and not his father. If only one parent had the gene, then 25% [GD26 50% as corrected by 1muttsfan. Momentary brain lapse.. of the offspring will be carriers.

I understand all the reasons you would want to test with White marans. Also why people are breeding the white CL to see what the percentages of white vs normal Cl coloration they get. But as far as finding out if certain birds carry the white gene or not i have a thought. And this should also work for the people who want to find out if their CL are gold, cream, or silver

Wouldnt the true test be to do some inbreeding. Breed the siblings together. i did this with some EE x redpyle oeg to make some red pyle coloration EE that would hopefully eventually breed true. The brother looked perfect EE other than leg color. The sisters looked perfect Redpyle OEG. I didn't know how the hatchery maid them, but i wanted to further the look. Now that is a really hard project bird but i also remember reading a thread on lavender Cochin's. breed Cochin to lav orp. Then those Lav/splits offspring you would take the siblings that looked Cochin and breed them together. Since their related you would see half their offspring look more Cochin and half look more lav orp cull the orp looking ones and breed the Cochin looking ones back to an unrelated Cochin to further the Cochin look. I know first hand this works, when you breed siblings together like i did on my RedPyle EE project they have the same blood so your going to see all kinds of different looking chicks. 4 came out with the desired look but all kinds were black and different duck wing color. also some had the right comb others had a different comb and some had the mix of the two.

So if you want to know what gene's are in your CL pairs you could basically have an overview of the last 2 to 3 generations of what was used to make that bird growing up right in front of you if you breed the offspring of your pairs back to each other. Please tell me if I'm wrong, i know all the reasons inbreeding is bad but that's not what your trying to find out. if you do some in breeding you will see what is in their blood. I just think this might not be a faster test but a more definite way to find out which birds have what genes when the gene pool is as it is in the us with the CCL breed.

 

[walady944]

Exciting day! Just got my GFF CL chicks today; looks like 8 girls and 2 roos. From B & C lines. Of course, there is nothing
cuter than these tiny ones, but can hardly wait to see how they develop.
Now if I can just figure out how to keep the roos, or at least the best one, without annoying the neighbors!
Lynn

 

[KPenley]

Exciting day! Just got my GFF CL chicks today; looks like 8 girls and 2 roos. From B & C lines. Of course, there is nothing
cuter than these tiny ones, but can hardly wait to see how they develop.
Now if I can just figure out how to keep the roos, or at least the best one, without annoying the neighbors!
Lynn

Congrats! My 8 month old Roo "Grey" learned how to crow yesterday...and he sounds like a goose lol! honk...honk...

 

[lonnyandrinda]

LOL yes whenever I have a new rooster learning to crow I laugh every time I hear their little screechy attempts.

 

[normanack]

LOL yes whenever I have a new rooster learning to crow I laugh every time I hear their little screechy attempts.

I think the Cream Legbar Club should have a Best and Worst Crow contest.

 

[Sueg4332]

I'm a dad

I know I am very late with this comment But that picture is just adorable. Trying to catch up on this thread. Have blue eggs in the incabator....