The Legbar Thread!

[blackbirds13]

Quote: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/517113/marans-sop-discussion-thread/300

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Yes the US SOP required a stricter wording, we basically tried to simplify it to match similar descriptions of other breeds. Not sure how much something like the "pink markings" allowed in the UK standard would be counted off in a US bird with a wording of "enamel." I'm not sure if we would be allowed to give more details/guidance in the SOP or not. Good question for the SOP committee- redchicken9 or kpenley care to comment?

Thumbprint: There is a good picture here http://pinksmarans.com/marans-chickens-comb-problems/. They have two pictures, one from each side of the head. It's as if someone pressed their thumb against his comb on one side, causing it to lean towards that side.

ETA: Although the thumbprint is a fault, it is not considered a disqualification according to that website. I don't have an SOP myself to check. Note to self: need to get one soon...

 

[tdhenson86]

Quote:
That's great! Be sure to stay in contact.

 

[KPenley]

Yes the US SOP required a stricter wording, we basically tried to simplify it to match similar descriptions of other breeds. Not sure how much something like the "pink markings" allowed in the UK standard would be counted off in a US bird with a wording of "enamel." I'm not sure if we would be allowed to give more details/guidance in the SOP or not. Good question for the SOP committee- redchicken9 or kpenley care to comment?

Thumbprint: There is a good picture here http://pinksmarans.com/marans-chickens-comb-problems/. They have two pictures, one from each side of the head. It's as if someone pressed their thumb against his comb on one side, causing it to lean towards that side.

ETA: Although the thumbprint is a fault, it is not considered a disqualification according to that website. I don't have an SOP myself to check. Note to self: need to get one soon...

Thank you Rinda.
The Poultry Club of Great Britain writes their descriptions in paragraph style. Although it is not flowery or poetry, there is a bit more detail included. The APA SOP is a description by part bullet point type of writing. It is concise, (hopefully) easy to understand, and does not vary from the definitions included at the beginning of the book. The point is to make it easy for judges to memorize and doable for poultry owners to breed towards. No one's bird will ever likely be 100% perfect. And that's fine. It's something to strive towards.
If you studied the British version first you will find the names for colors, shapes, and sizes changed. These are not adjustments to meet a different American standard of bird. They are the US equivalent of the British in language used by the American Poultry Society. Please do not doubt that many (MANY) hours were spent debating and researching individual points last year, as well as the two week editing process it went through this year. Special thank you goes out to Heather for all of your hard work and putting up with all of my questions

We all learned so much last year, and with the help of accomplished geneticists, judges, and experts in showmanship we hope to continue to learn even more in the years to come!

I just looked up thumbprint. If you own an APA SOP, go to page 31 and you will find it listed under Defects:Breed Shape: Comb: (c)3 Thumb Mark, (fig43).........1 to 2 (points deducted). Great pic link above. You're right Rinda, here it's a defect, not a DQ.

 

[CibolaChooks]

Thank you for re-posting these as a reminder of what the US group is looking at for APA acceptance. I have been going off of the English standards and they had listed:
[FONT=georgia,serif]Color in both sexes: Beak yellow. Eyes orange or red. Comb, face, and wattles red. [/FONT][FONT=georgia,serif]Ear lobes pure opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good male[/FONT][FONT=georgia,serif]. Legs and feet yellow.[/FONT] ( source:https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/breed-standard)

So I have several questions related to this. It appears as though the American breed standard is more specific and limiting than the English standard. Is this a necessity because of the requirements of the APA in how they want things listed (I remember the APA wanted one number for comb spikes where the English Standard called for an allowable range). Or is it that we will be allowed to and will publish guidelines to clarify for the judges such as listed above in the quote from the English standard highlighted in red? I recall that the DQ's are still a work in progress so I am thinking that this sort of clarification may also be in the works as well. But then I think that the APA seems more absolute in the standard so they may not allow 'the spirit of the law' guidance.

With regard to Steen's rooster, I would describe it as white or maybe cream but it certainly has a few slight pink markings. So he is fine in the English standards but would not be ideal according to what I see in the proposed American standard. Am I reading this right or wrong? Forgive me I am new to the whole breed standards thing and I am trying to understand what judges look for and how the standards are applied, and really appreciate everyone's advice/take on this sort of thing!

Another question I've had is what does thumb marks mean in the comb section? Is that a variation of side-sprigs, but ones that are flatter like knotty grooves in a walnut or pea comb or something else?

Thanks again for all of your insights and clarifications not mention hard work on the standard!

Seems like we would want to make ours easier to reach seeing that were starting with such a weak gene pool. also i think it kinda silly to be trying to make our own standard now. sure its is nice to have to work towards but if that's what you want we should just be trying to reach the original British standard, achieve its historical look rather than change it to suit us.. after five or six years of people breeding to British standard we should then all get together and see what is a viable American standard to reach with the gene pool we have been giving . We can write any standard you want but come time for admittance all these breeders will have to bring uniform birds to the table. IF some are close here and close there but not all our breeders have a uniform look then they wont be admitted. (correct me if I'm wrong. but what is the admittance procedure once were ready to have our flocks inspected towards accepting our standard) I think a revised standard written once were all getting to a more uniform look is what I'm waiting for. And until then I'm kinda ignoring the American one, no need to worry for a cpl years. Id almost bet once were all getting A more uniform look our standard will be rewritten again to ensure acceptance into the apa .The standard will bend to what the majority has as far as form goes come admittance time. It would be foolish to write one that wont get enough breeders meeting it, or one that will take us ten years to reach. I'm sure we will all make it sooner than that though as long as the majority's form is whats worked towards in our standard. .

 

[chickendeal]

some babies that are a week oldwith some sfh and a splash and black copper marans

 

[ChicKat]

Seems like we would want to make ours easier to reach seeing that were starting with such a weak gene pool. also i think it kinda silly to be trying to make our own standard now. sure its is nice to have to work towards but if that's what you want we should just be trying to reach the original British standard, achieve its historical look rather than change it to suit us.. after five or six years of people breeding to British standard we should then all get together and see what is a viable American standard to reach with the gene pool we have been giving . We can write any standard you want but come time for admittance all these breeders will have to bring uniform birds to the table. IF some are close here and close there but not all our breeders have a uniform look then they wont be admitted. (correct me if I'm wrong. but what is the admittance procedure once were ready to have our flocks inspected towards accepting our standard) I think a revised standard written once were all getting to a more uniform look is what I'm waiting for. And until then I'm kinda ignoring the American one, no need to worry for a cpl years. Id almost bet once were all getting A more uniform look our standard will be rewritten again to ensure acceptance into the apa .The standard will bend to what the majority has as far as form goes come admittance time. It would be foolish to write one that wont get enough breeders meeting it, or one that will take us ten years to reach. I'm sure we will all make it sooner than that though as long as the majority's form is whats worked towards in our standard. .

Actually, the SOP that the members of the Cream Legbar Club developed IS the British standard in American Poultry Association terms. IMO the smart breeders will breed toward the one that the Club developed. Since "Perfection" will never be reached...no bird will be likely to meet the SOP 100%. For example, a cockerel may have 5 instead of 6 points and the judge will deduct accordingly - I believe it is 1/2 point. So the notion that the USA standard is somehow different from the British one seems a bit off base IMO.

I'm curious where you are finding differences.

Perhaps you could enumerate the differences that you are seeing. Once again, a number of people put a great deal of work into the effort--- I will call out redchicken9 and KPenley for heroic efforts to get completion to have a standard for people in the USA to breed toward. -- Waiting 5-years and then designing a standard -- seems like a strange way to approach the acceptance goal, or did I misunderstand what you were writing?

Since the earliest the breed could be accepted is 5-years after breeders have been breeding true, some of us want to see that happen in our lifetimes --LOL. To do this we are establishing a standard and then documenting -breeding true- Among things on the Club's standard are -- autosexing--> check, all my chicks have been easily autosexed, blue or green eggs---> check - I have no whites or browns and no olives; crests ---> every chick I have hatched has been crested --- etc.

As the 5-year period comes to a close, there may be some tweaks and revisions to the standard that is being used. One example that comes to mind, is that the tail-angle for females is 35-degrees. Perhaps it will become 45-degrees or 40-degree angle.

Once again, are there specifics that you see that are different between the two standards, other than the revision of language to match the way APA standards are written? Of course things are changed like colour and color.

Last thought, if you are breeding to the British standard, you are also breeding to the American proposed SOP -- The idea that we breed for awhile and then develop a standard would imply that we are trying to get acceptance for a breed different from the Cream Legbar. :O)

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote: I 2nd your call out to redchicken9 and KPenlley. It was, I'm sure, at times a tedious effort and took a lot of their personal time but it has given Legbar breeders interested in APA acceptance a path to follow and a common goal which should help stream line the process so we can have a more uniform group of birds going forward. And it is very much aligned to the British SOP. There was great discussion, debate, and then an overall consensus on what was adopted to give us a starting point for the process. The differences thus far are due to the language restrictions and we dropped olive eggs from the standard.

 

[1muttsfan]

Truly a long and arduous path to acceptance! Thanks again to those who have worked so hard to develop a standard that the APA will find acceptable. Remember, this is a document that may stand for a hundred years or more, so there is no need to be hasty in finalizing it, as changes would be very difficult later. The committee has done an excellent job mulling over the fine points, I am sure in their valuable spare time. However, the US standard as written now is clear and an excellent guideline to follow as we make our way towards acceptance.

I integrated my 3 - 2 1/2 month olds into the pen with my November hatch birds, so far everyone is doing OK - the older cockerel in that pen (one of the original 3 juvenile delinquents) spends most of his time fence-fighting with the Basque rooster in the next pen, so he is not so interested in the newcomers.

 

[GaryDean26]

Quote:

...So I have several questions related to this. It appears as though the American breed standard is more specific and limiting than the English standard. Is this a necessity because of the requirements of the APA in how they want things listed (I remember the APA wanted one number for comb spikes where the English Standard called for an allowable range). Or is it that we will be allowed to and will publish guidelines to clarify for the judges such as listed above in the quote from the English standard highlighted in red?....

Yes...the APA is more limiting. In their standards they don't see how 5, 6, or 7 point can all be equal. They require one to be the standard of perfection and the rest as not quite perfect. They don't accept orange or red eyes as equal. On is the best and the other has to be 2nd best. Likewise don't see white, opaque, or cream ear lobes has the same. One has to be defined as perfection and the others and no quite perfect.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the SOP though. In the history of the APA, no breed standard has ever "got everything right". Even the British standard for the Cream Legbars that was written by the most capable poultry breeders and geneticists of their time didn't get everything "right". A breeder in the UK who has seen about as many high quality Cream Legbars as anyone out there told me that the more she studies the British SOP the more she is is convinced that she has never seen a Cream Legbar that meets the standard and never will. We are never going to see a Cream Legbar that meet the standard here either. When looking to the Standard you have to pick and choose your battle so to speak. A Champion Cream Legbar may be a hen that scores 87 out of 100 points. A competitive hen may be one that scores 75 points out of 100 and an average hen one that scored 50 out of 100. The number are for a reference only I have never judged poultry, but do know that those that breed the birds that they feel are the best are generally more satisfied with the results in their flock than those that let the SOP police govern everything they do. I also know that breeding required good intuition, an emphasis on vigor and non tangible traits, and creativity. None of which you will find in a written SOP.