The Legbar Thread!

[madamwlf]

Congrats on your hatch. I hope they do well--have you hatched this late in the season before? Any concerns about winter weather and babies? Oh, and we need pictures!

I'm not worried. Momma will take care of them. I had a Nankin bantam hen hatch out bantam chicks in the middle of February one year and they did fine. If I see there are issues, I'll take them in the house for the winter. I'll get pictures once she brings them out.

 

[Sally Sunshine]

We have chickies!!! I had one of my bantam orp hens go broody.....again so I gave her some CLB eggs. If I remember correctly all these eggs came from one hen since the other was broody. They finally hatched today: 2 pullets and 3 roos. And the roos are very light in color. I also believe one of the hens is too. So excited!

awesome! I am glad you have a good broody! I haven't had luck except with serama and they cant sit on much! LOL

 

[madamwlf]

awesome! I am glad you have a good broody! I haven't had luck except with serama and they cant sit on much! LOL

Get some bantam orps! Big fluffy butts and constantly going broody.

 

[KPenley]

Pics? Of the Babies? Please?

 

[Sally Sunshine]

Quote: I cant have more chickens, I have been selling everything off. We are researching auctioning our entire Blue partridge brahma flock, I had gotten way to addicted to them and have my plate too full of other non chicken things. : ( I wish I had a farm but alas I do not. So I need to downsize and they are taking up most of the room.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote: This butter quote is changing a bit... I believe the quote was not light butter but rather very pale butter. Very pale butter could be used to describe what I see in some of the cream birds but it is indeed very very pale because is it not white-white like Brada Puhi is stating and that silver look is not probably due to the cream but rather to a lessening of the Autosomal red in the face of the females if you keep a more chestnut shoulder you may indeed get more color around the face of the females.. ..but yellow hackles may get you the colorful birds so many of you prefer. And no, not all UK judges agree with the yellow tone that light butter could be described as if you asked around but folks can latch on to whatever works best for them. I've been told the color is cream.... like the cream you drink that cows make... Robert Driver plainly said that a yellow is not cream and to avoid yellow. I know some of you poo poo the British breeders but if you contact them they are really willing to converse. Bonnie Hall has given me some nice bits of advice.

I don't know a lot but it seems to me that when you start breeding cream colored, barred, autosexing, blue egg laying birds you will see that certain choices have to be made due to the genetics that you are playing with and this goes beyond simply what cream should look like into what Autosomal reds and other melanizers are contributing as I have so many questions about that now. If you breed yellow hackled birds you will not get a cream colored bird unless you decide that yellow is cream and then yes, you won't have to worry about a pale rooster. I have a very silver female and if you look at her compared to a female with comparable hackle color but not as silver looking it is the red around the face that is making her appear so light but her hackle feathers are not white-white and match the more colored females.... photos on the internet do a real disservice to those who have not seen a real cream hackle color. The cream gene helps to lighten the whole tone of the bird so it's necessary to get it right or the whole bird will be off colored. If you go for a more colorful male saddle you may not be playing with 2 ig genes which when it comes to females may mean a lot of off-colored offspring. It's not so much what you like or want it's what the genetics of the bird need to be breed with any sort of consistency if they are going to make the APA. If you want a colorful bird then it has to be just that a colorful bird with no ig gene or it has to be a cream bird with 2 doses of ig. Anything less in both birds is a waste of time and will not breed true. The Autosomal issue is something to investigate along with the melanizers going forward. We also need to look at the barring issue as I am very happy to say that my oldest F2 juvenile definitely has a lighter barring than my F1 Alpha boy- His saddle is a bit too yellow but has black barring in it but so far I like his type and size and comb. I have quite a few with the paler barring but some are the same dark barred, but my lighter barred boys seem to have more of the gray barring in the saddle than my darker and/or more colorful boys but I'm watching them. I was going to cull but instead will keep them around for another month or so to see. So much to see and learn it's mind boggling.....

 

[ChicKat]

Such good insights, as always blackbirds13. Although pictures don't do justice, on the internet they are still worth those 1,000 words. Could you put a picture up of what you are talking about with a light face female?

ETA - oh, I am probably someone who poo poos the Brit breeders, but not actually... Several people in the USA and a couple from the UK are not fans of what I call the overly light birds...so although the light group may be more vociferous, and perhaps more plugged in, they are not the only British viewpoint, and I truly do stand corrected for my sweeping generalizations and poking fun. It is meant to be funny and not mean to them -- really.



We cannot slavishly subscribe to what a few are saying, or interpreting --- Before anyone takes offense I'm not saying that this is being done - I'm cautioning for the future. -- Seems to me that the SOP there and here is pretty clear that the earlobes and neck hackles are not the same color. Someone sent me the Cream, Silver, Gold - from the Journal of Genetics by Punnett -- and I just re-read that last night...

There are some discrepancies that we have the opportunity to resolve. In his famous quote, Pease said that the down on chicks for CLs is as the gold legbar, in the Brit SOP it says as the silver legbar. I suspect that perhaps since the CL is inhibited gold based bird, the down should actually resemble the gold legbar and not the silver. The other probable error/omission in the Brit SOP is that the birds have shafting on their feathers.

As an artist, blackbirds13 posseses powerful observation abilities that most people don't have...doesn't observation of every CL shows feather shafting -- (shows some other things too...but that's not the subject at hand)-- It is probably as important to have the USA SOP a match to the true bird, as it is to have it a match to the Brit SOP... The Perfection will never be reached, but the SOP should describe a real and not an imaginary bird. I'm pointing out some of the areas where our friends overseas may have had an error or an omission. Certainly those are definitely things that we wouldn't want to replicate here...because they erred there... Another USA difference is that no one in the USA has reported an olive egg layer. To get an olive egg layer here...now, some other genetics must be introduced.

Lastly, I understand how advocates of the very light bird, if indeed that is what a number of people believe to be correct feel as strongly about their advocacy as advocates for a different look feel.....Some folks both in the USA and in the UK have told me that the white-looking birds, and the 'some chestnut allowed' birds would all fit into the standard. Meaning the Brit - from the UK source that told me that, and the DRAFT USA SOP from the USA person who told me...so perhaps it finally IS time to move on to type, productivity etc... IF these two sources are correct. I do find it unappealing to hear people intimate to others that their birds, or their knowledge is inferior because they don't subscribe to the light coloration.

Thanks for the information, I really would like to see a picture of a female with light colored face, because it is something I'm not able to picture.



ETA - better add that blackbirds13 does not imply that other's knowledge or birds are inferior --just so my rant doesn't get misinterpreted. Rather there is a thoughtful examination of what the breeding results are producing and now and then a post.

 

[dretd]

We cannot slavishly subscribe to what a few are saying, or interpreting --- Before anyone takes offense I'm not saying that this is being done - I'm cautioning for the future. -- Seems to me that the SOP there and here is pretty clear that the earlobes and neck hackles are not the same color. Someone sent me the Cream, Silver, Gold - from the Journal of Genetics by Punnett -- and I just re-read that last night...

There are some discrepancies that we have the opportunity to resolve. In his famous quote, Pease said that the down on chicks for CLs is as the gold legbar, in the Brit SOP it says as the silver legbar. I suspect that perhaps since the CL is inhibited gold based bird, the down should actually resemble the gold legbar and not the silver. The other probable error/omission in the Brit SOP is that the birds have shafting on their feathers.

As an artist, blackbirds13 posseses powerful observation abilities that most people don't have...doesn't observation of every CL shows feather shafting -- (shows some other things too...but that's not the subject at hand)-- It is probably as important to have the USA SOP a match to the true bird, as it is to have it a match to the Brit SOP... The Perfection will never be reached, but the SOP should describe a real and not an imaginary bird. I'm pointing out some of the areas where our friends overseas may have had an error or an omission. Certainly those are definitely things that we wouldn't want to replicate here...because they erred there... Another USA difference is that no one in the USA has reported an olive egg layer. To get an olive egg layer here...now, some other genetics must be introduced.

Lastly, I understand how advocates of the very light bird, if indeed that is what a number of people believe to be correct feel as strongly about their advocacy as advocates for a different look feel.....Some folks both in the USA and in the UK have told me that the white-looking birds, and the 'some chestnut allowed' birds would all fit into the standard. Meaning the Brit - from the UK source that told me that, and the DRAFT USA SOP from the USA person who told me...so perhaps it finally IS time to move on to type, productivity etc... IF these two sources are correct. I do find it unappealing to hear people intimate to others that their birds, or their knowledge is inferior because they don't subscribe to the light coloration.

ChicKat, thanks for taking the time to post, I always enjoy reading your comments.

The shafting will be addressed in the next draft of the SOP. Upon review of many British birds, it appears that most hens do have some degree of shafting so it is important to address this in the US SOP,

My goal with the SOP is to mirror the British SOP where possible and to clarify points so as to not unduly handicap American Cream Legbar fanciers when they go to shows. The trick is that if you mention an area and make it permissible, you have to carefully word things so that while not penalizing the hen for having a trait, you do not encourage that trait to become more wide spread. Luckily we have several years to review, internalize and modify the SOP where needed before the Cream Legbars will be ready for acceptance.

I really think the reason the light males are championed by some is because they are obviously ig/ig. This is the Cream Legbar and for me, I am not as concerned about the amount of chestnut a bird, rather I am concerned about whether they are cream based. I went out of my way to obtain eggs from a breeder with lighter males specifically so that I can have known cream (ig/ig) genetics to do test hatches and understand what I have. They are invaluable for that purpose. Does that mean I don't like color--not in the least. I like the chestnut. I simply need that assurance of cream for my breeding program. Others may not feel that need and that is up to them on how they want to breed their flock and develop their line. Some want to build the barn first then paint it, others want to paint as they go so there is less work later. I am wanting to start with some pre-primed material along with the raw lumber. Everyone is different.

The British SOP is by far less specific than the APA version. They address far fewer items and present it more as a narrative where the APA requires more detail in every aspect, so there was a challenge in trying to port the intent of the Brits into the document we have now. I thank those involved with that very much--mainly KPenley and Heather Barnes. I have really not understood all of the concerns and bickering about the more colorful-but-not-obviuosly non-cream colors on males. The standard quite clearly allows for some chestnut on the crest, shoulders, wing bows and fronts, and back. Solid blocks of red, no, but chestnut certainly fine. Avoid on the wing bay/triangle and saddle where possible, but it will be points off not a DQ so don't sweat the small stuff. Do your best with what you have and pick your battles every year to improve. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Every breeder will choose to focus on what is important to them or try to eliminate what they don't like first.

As for the chick down, I am suspicious that the down is to match the silver chicks. When I hatched the two known cream boys out I thought 'wow, these guys look like silver chicks'. Seriously they were that silvery-creamy-grey. I had one silver-dilute chick hatch along side and they looked very, very similar--so as to not be able to tell them apart by just a glance. When I asked Blackbirds13 about that, she said that in her experience the lighter creamy silver downed boys turned out cream roosters. Could it be that the preferred down is like the silver for the males and like the gold for the females? Just a thought.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks for your insights dretd...

When I read my copy of the USA SOP--there doesn't seem to be mention of down at all...and I do have an old copy on Kindle or Google reader or something... My understanding is that all the discussion of down for the SOP goes in the economics section at the top.

It's also soo very difficult to tell what we are all talking about when we say silver chick down. My first two boys had silver down...with perhaps some buff on the heads..and big cream blotches..so cute. It was a very short time before they were feathered...but was my silver the same color as your silver? who could say...only the OAC--down was between OAC906 and OAC907 with headspots like OAC7, and a bit of OAC821 here and there, Then they grew up barred like all the CLs do as juvenile males.....

I thought his breast feathers showed a bit of salmon


And he grew up to look like this:

What is partially amazing to me is the many DIFFERENT colors that the roosters have at different stages of their lives. It may be in effect here because the sunlight is so intense...but here's dad to the above rooster:


So he has darkened up a bit in the intervening year and a half since the earlier photo---but then again he hasn't had his usual sunshine.

Just as a side note too-- I photographed today this knob on the back of his comb...is that the source of the crest? Anyone else have seen this on one of their roosters when he was old and balding (or molting as the case may be)


re-Read this lastnight to cure my insomnia - sent to be my TheTropix - (thanks theTropix)
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf

It seems that Punnett was seeing something in addition to the ig simplification that we are all discussing on this/these threads but wasn't able to get to the bottom of it, and put preliminary findings out for future researchers to pick up on.

 

[KPenley]

@Kathy, APA SOPs don't include down, only fluff/undercoat/etc...but it may be possible to have chicks in our official paintings