The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[armorfirelady]

Crooks- very informative post. I as a small backyard chicken raiser have/do feed layer pellets. But my plan when it is gone is to switch to grains and supplements for their better health. I do know that between last fall and this spring my 4 older hens (1yr old in May) look much healthier since I ferment their feed & routinely add herbs to it. I've also added. Oats, wheat, flax seed as well. This means they get less layer pellets with the addition of grains and hence why a 50# bag I purchased in September will probably last thru fall. They also forage daily for their food which also has cut back on their layer pellets intake. My tots are on grower crumbles because they don't forage yet but my hope/plan is to have them all on grains only with supplements and herbs by fall.

 

[aoxa]

Hey aoxa is it possible the reason the other eggs were paler is because they WERE fed layer? that morning that we each ate one egg from your flock and one egg from your local farmers market and were commenting on the difference Im still wondering what caused it since my eggs are the same quality and colour as yours. nice orange yolk

Could very well be

The ones from the farmer market were also free ranged. I am not sure exactly what they feed them other than that.

 

[hotrodflash]

Yesterday I spent the day at the Farmers Tilth again. Sold out my cut flowers, veggie started plants, Romaine, and onions. I had just a little set up with a few things but the best part?....I sold four two month old barn yard pullets! I only have three left and they are at point of lay.

A lot of people asked me if I would sell eggs. Next year, when my heritage Rhode Island Red flock are in production. The local store sells free range eggs for fifty cents each!

Does anyone else sell at market? The lady in the booth next to me sells alpaca wool and sits at a spindle wheel all day. Lots of people selling produce but I was the only one with live chickens.

I don't sell at a market but I am selling mine at my sisters workplace, I have standing orders from several people and when she has extras to sell, she puts up a sign and they are gone in a few hours. They send any extra cartons and return the cartons to her to send back to me. More and more people are requesting eggs and I am having trouble keeping up because all my girls are not laying yet, not old enough, but they will be there soon.

 

[pickitfarm]

Different where you live obviously... Here it's one in ten, now. :S

Here in Australia we're one of the homes of Monsanto. People still use roundup like it's a family tradition. My family's been aware of their dangerous 'modern miracles' but only now are people starting to get up in arms about it.

My DH use to work on farms as a young teenager. He talks about walking acres of corn and spraying it with Roundup (Agent Orange - remember those exposed to it during the Vietnam War and all of the fallout) and having to wear long sleeves, pants and gloves (should have worn a space suit) when doing it. Now it is edible......NOT!

 

[ChickChickChicky]

My DH use to work on farms as a young teenager. He talks about walking acres of corn and spraying it with Roundup (Agent Orange - remember those exposed to it during the Vietnam War and all of the fallout) and having to wear long sleeves, pants and gloves (should have worn a space suit) when doing it. Now it is edible......NOT!

Agent Orange is absolutely NOT the same thing as Roundup.


AGENT ORANGE
Different mixes of herbicides were used, but most were mixtures of 2 chemicals that were phenoxy herbicides:

• 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D)
• 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T)

ROUNDUP
Glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine) is a broad-spectrum systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially annual broadleaf weeds and grasses known to compete with commercial crops grown around the globe. It was discovered to be a herbicide by Monsanto chemist John E. Franz in 1970.[3] Monsanto brought it to market in the 1970s under the trade name Roundup, and Monsanto's last commercially relevant United States patent expired in 2000


edited by staff

 

[bluebirdnanny]

I don't think the feather quality or nutrition come into play with LM's hen. I just think she is more submissive, and therefore just gets a lot more action than the other girls. That and she is probably starting her molt.

You notice that most of the BEST layers have lesser quality feathers, are smaller in body and have paler legs. I think it was Fred's Hens that talked about this over on the OT thread.. The best layers often look the most rough.

Penny was definitely one like that! All of her energy went into laying.

If I could find that post I would quote it.

Yesterday I spent the day at the Farmers Tilth again. Sold out my cut flowers, veggie started plants, Romaine, and onions. I had just a little set up with a few things but the best part?....I sold four two month old barn yard pullets! I only have three left and they are at point of lay.

A lot of people asked me if I would sell eggs. Next year, when my heritage Rhode Island Red flock are in production. The local store sells free range eggs for fifty cents each!

Does anyone else sell at market? The lady in the booth next to me sells alpaca wool and sits at a spindle wheel all day. Lots of people selling produce but I was the only one with live chickens.

Oh if only I were closer! Your produce looks superb! Wish I could do that at market. I would grab those Heritage in a flash!

Yes, true; I think I need to elucidate my meaning a bit clearer. I'm talking about the relationship between 'Commercial Production Layers' and the specific layer pellets. I'm aware of these characteristics you mention and the reasons why they were bred into them, but I have the opinion that these high production layers are not actually the healthiest birds for us since they cannot even remain in full health while performing to artificially (layer pellet) assisted and dependent genetic potential. If you allow them a diet that gives them the opportunity to restore their feathers, they don't lay as much; if you give them the diet they were developed on as a breed, they lay more eggs but aren't in such good shape. This mutually exclusive state of affairs, as far as I can see, means they're not laying the best eggs for human health while on the pellets formulated specifically to compel them to give the available protein to the constant egg laying even though their body is in need of the protein to restore itself. In other words, I don't think the 'eggs OR feathers, not both' situation is really a genetic trait that can be considered harmless or irrelevant health-wise. I think it's symptomatic of a badly unbalanced breed that needs more work on the genetics so they can supply their own protein needs (from more natural sources diet wise) as well as support such heavy production without dependence on specially formulated pellets to maintain the high output. I don't believe you get healthy eggs from a less than healthy hen; eggs themselves are not an inherent sign of total health.

Just my opinion and I'm not knocking anyone who keeps C.P.L's or feeds them pellets; each to their own, it's just my reasons for not doing the same. My family has more serious health issues than many so there isn't an option to consume less healthy foods if we can do better by ourselves.

I've read industry guidebooks detailing why they can't maintain good feathers and high egg production at one and the same time and I think it's a breed issue that hopefully will be overcome in future. It's also worth considering (at least in Australia) that all of these commercial layer breeds are related and come from limited family pools, which in fact the industry itself has been publicly fretting about. Trouble is spotted on the horizon due to lack of genetic diversity. These hens are of breeds developed to run themselves into the ground to make a nice round competitive number on the annual egg scoreboard. It's very driven by commercial chook math --- at date X after X amount of feed and X amount of financial input the egg quota had better equal X --- or else! This makes sense in industry terms but in the more esoteric terminology of health, we don't benefit much from consuming products from any sub-par animal. That's gotten us where we are today... Growing our own for our health's sake. Commercial farming success is not yet linked to nor due to full animal health. C.P.Layers in their current genetic expression/'incarnation' are symptomatic of this. It's not so much the genes that cause feather loss in production layers, it's their system's reaction to the layer pellets their breed was developed in conjunction with. Their genes respond to the pellets by overproducing eggs at the expense of the body's other protein needs. When you put them on a natural diet they're a little less productive but their presupposed genetic trait of feather loss suddenly somehow is no longer a trait. Hope I'm making sense... Need a coffee, lol...

Since I'm trying to grow for my own and my family's health, not to sell, that's not an objective in line with our needs, so that's why I take them off the layer pellets; they can then achieve supply of the protein needs they were unable to meet on the layer pellets, which allows them strong plumage, and to give better quality eggs. This will result in a few less eggs a year from each hen (but they are noticeably better quality which is my objective as I'm not a seller.) To the very best production layers from commercial bloodlines, the standard layer pellets are akin to a command entered into a program telling it to repeat a self-deleterious action ad infinitum until they either die in service or burn themselves out and get culled and replaced.

When layer breed eggs are tested for nutrient profiles and compared to basically any other breed's eggs, they're very poor quality. Organically fed and freerange layer's eggs do much better, but still not as good as the less-prolific breeds. The best laying breeds are determined as such by their sheer output every year rather than the actual nutritional quality of the produce. To achieve this they are bred to put the vast majority of all their intake of protein into constant egg production, which the layer pellets are formulated to support, so their feathers are weaker and they moult harder, and their flesh tends to be stringy, tasteless and tough.

The most heavy laying of these production layer breeds were developed on artificial diets that work with their specified genetics to force them to keep up a hectic laying pace all year at the expense of much vitality. I don't think the products of very heavy-production animals of any species and any overly commercially oriented breed are better for us than their slightly less productive relatives. As far as I can see it's a false economy, quantity over quality. No animal kept under any constant stress of any kind produces anything I consider a truly wholesome meal. An egg a day for a year (or slightly under) when not receiving enough protein to maintain full health is physiological stress; I think it's possible though to breed new strains that can receive full nutrition, enjoy full health, and still be so productive. I think these current commercial breeds reliant on layer pellets and sub-par health for full production quotas are a slight misstep or wrong turn but better strains will emerge in future. The backyard breeders of these production layers will likely drive that step, since they are seeking the egg count to remain as high as possible but tend to keep their birds on far superior diets to what battery and barn hens receive. Animals aren't machines so while we can tweak the breeds to be very efficient and productive, once we overdo it and the animal isn't able to maintain full health AND top production simultaneously, we're not getting the best health for ourselves either. Since my health is to be gained in the quality, I need to ensure it; if I were a commercial layer breeder/keeper my goals would obviously be quite different and I would be wanting that egg-a-day-all-year-from-each-hen idea.

More stuff I read in industry books on production layers: the commercial breeders bred their bodies to be smaller so they were more economical in housing and intake and didn't have lots of bone and muscle to grow before laying and maintain during and after. They weren't measuring feed economy as an inherited trait until fairly recently though so many of these hens must eat far more than chooks that size, even laying daily, should eat because they can't assimilate it as well as many other breeds. Some broiler chicks that were tested for feed economy were eating three chicken's meals and only processing under a third of all they ate.

Not to knock any who keep some birds only for eggs and others only for breeding, either. I know a lot of layers do have great lives compared to plenty of other chooks. My focus is more on an old style family flock, as some people have called it. All-purpose, sort of. I'm breeding for every quality in every bird rather than isolating them for isolated or mutually-divergent-if-overemphasized traits, even though a jack of all trades is a master of none. I don't want semi-crippled perpetually immature blobs who can't go free ranging and enjoy life, on one end of the scale, nor on the other hand do I want a constantly protein-needy egg-laying tube on legs who will be worth nothing more when her short period of service is over. If there's any one trait I want them to be masters of it's hardiness or 'rude' health, lol.

I want them to serve my needs and those of my family but also enjoy their lives and produce steadily good offspring, some of which will continue breeding. Any member of my flock starts off as an egg with a fair amount of equal potential; it has the potential to become a pet or meat or a breeder or layer, or all four, (lol) and I eat my breeder's eggs too when I'm not breeding them as I need to know what qualities they're passing onto the eggs. I also eat my ex breeders. They need to have good health, good flesh, good eggs, good social/flock mentalities, and last and least good looking feather pigmentation is nice. As they (used to) say, no good cow is a bad color.

Very informative post. I do have what those here said are production an no the Rode Islands I was told. But the friend moved and GAVE them to me. I do have them for eggs and someday maybe meat. Just want to ensure I always have some protein in the diet that is free range/ healthy as I can.

Could very well be

The ones from the farmer market were also free ranged. I am not sure exactly what they feed them other than that

Oh I am jealous of that get together and coming home with more animals!!!!! Especially since I have seen all those photos of your chickens!!!!

 

[camilleathome]

Oh I am jealous of that get together and coming home with more animals!!!!! Especially since I have seen all those photos of your chickens!!!!

It was absolutely a blast. I laughed so hard during dinner. And we are all foodies and animal lovers so I always love hanging out with others like that. Justine and Sue are great.The drive was super fun as well. I think my favorite part other than seeing all the farms is just seeing how both sue and justine take so much joy in just being with their animals. Its hard to find other people that GET that their more than just animals. Their familly and part of your life

 

[lalaland]

Hey aoxa is it possible the reason the other eggs were paler is because they WERE fed layer? that morning that we each ate one egg from your flock and one egg from your local farmers market and were commenting on the difference Im still wondering what caused it since my eggs are the same quality and colour as yours. nice orange yolk

I've always wondered about the reason some hens, raised the same and of the same breed and same age, lay eggs with different yolks. You now, sisters where one will always have a clearly oranger egg.

Remember those rescue hens that spent a year in a guy's bedroom before coming to my place to live (got to witness them seeing sky, bugs, grass, etc for the first time, kind of cool)? Anyway, their yolks are signficantly paler than any other hen - I thought that after they had been here and on pasture, the eggs would get more orange, but they have remained pale. Taste good, but look like commercial eggs.

 

[lalaland]

would you ask for a different chick?

So, after learning that the teeny tiny chick that hasn't been thriving was not a swedish flower hen, I couldn't figure out what it was. I had gotten very specific breeds from the person who hatched the eggs for me. This just didn't fit with any.

So I sent her a pic and her response was that it must be a banty, probably a welsummer banty. When I picked up the chicks, hatched to order, she had three kiddie swimming pools full of chicks and she selected them. She said she knew she had bantys in her pool.

ugh. first off, I have regular welsummers, and they are not my fav breed. I wouldn't choose to have another. Second, not a big fan of banties, and thirdly and most importantly, the last two smaller sized hens I had were picked on - and they weren't banty, just smaller sized. They both died - the one that was necropsied by the state lab came back with a result that it was a stress induced ecoli overload from being picked on. Both of the two had been picked on by a bully hen.

So I wouldn't bring a banty into this flock.

This little BANTY chick is not quite 3 weeks old. It has had this vitamin deficiency and has required separation with a buddy, lots and lots of extra care, and even when it has been healthier hasn't been able to keep up with the regular sized rambunctious chicks of the same age.

I'm toying with asking her to take the banty back. She will likely still have other ones that this one could be with, and she does maintain a home flock of a huge variety of ducks and chickens, including banties, silkies, giants, regular breeds, etc.

I'm not sure I have ANY swedish flower hens in this batch of chicks. I am a little frustrated here! Of the two chicks that died, one was teeny tiny and must have been a banty. Not a sfh because it had dark legs. I think it probably had the vitamin deficiency issue too and I just didn't recognize it. THe other one that died was the dead in the morning type with no obvious signs of problems.

 

[starlingdaly]

My hens are not laying much with all the rain either. They really are fair weather layers!

I have a hatchery Rhode Island Red that definitely is not a heritage RIR so I guess that means Production Red? She is just at POL and super sweet.

I too am against layer pellets. They seem to be just corn and soy with some calcium and vitamins. I felt I could do MUCH better than that health wise and feed everyone a mixture of mostly organic: Einkorn, split peas, pumpkin seed, BOSS, brown rice, sesame seeds, millet, quinoa, dried coconut and powdered kelp. Mixed with a tiny amount of DE, cayenne, and garlic powder. Sometimes I put bird seed mix in there or flax seeds.
I throw in Taste of the Wild dog food during molting time.
I also sprout wheat, rye, lentils and chickpeas. They free range wherever they want (except the ones who can't hop the 4 foot fence around the mini-pasture) and they lay superbly.
My best eggs come from the chooks stuck in the mini-pasture. Everyone else eats god knows what (I have caught them in the neighbor's dog and goat food (both complete crap) which they eat like candy if they can get it. It makes the eggs taste weird. Kinda like mothballs so of course I HATE seeing them chowing down on it.
But until we move I just have to deal with it and prevent it as best I can since I certainly can't complain to the neighbor about it!
Sorry, my frustration turned into a rant. :/