The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[pickitfarm]

Yesterday I spent the day at the Farmers Tilth again. Sold out my cut flowers, veggie started plants, Romaine, and onions. I had just a little set up with a few things but the best part?....I sold four two month old barn yard pullets! I only have three left and they are at point of lay.

A lot of people asked me if I would sell eggs. Next year, when my heritage Rhode Island Red flock are in production. The local store sells free range eggs for fifty cents each!

Does anyone else sell at market? The lady in the booth next to me sells alpaca wool and sits at a spindle wheel all day. Lots of people selling produce but I was the only one with live chickens.

Congrats for your success at the market this weekend. We have a 15 acre farm but only 2 in veggie productions along with our eggs. Last two years we were just starting and sold what we had at the Augusta Riverwalk in Augusta, GA. We just received our egg license a few weeks ago and will start selling eggs this year. Been giving them away since February when we purchased a flock of laying hens and some rooster which all but one was sold. (too much of a blood bath with all those grown roos.) With the license we can now sell them at a market. The owner of the business where my husband works told him he can put a sign in the window to sell there which is great. We are still getting our feet wet trying to find the best market. Augusta has been good to us. He has had his picture in the paper several times for his stand.

 

[pickitfarm]

I
I totally agree with you and wanted to add more... Ever heared of a weed spray called "roundup"? Well the company who makes it is called monsoto. They have been behind every genetic modified plant creation sence it started... 30 years ago they started putting "roundup" on their crops, they engineer the crops to withstand the weed control but the weeds/other plants die off...
What's different to these plants using roundup then other commercial pesticides? You can't wash it off! It becomes part of the plant and you consume it! This is in corn,wheat,and sugar... Every staple crop except organic crops has some kind of this product in it, every company you buy from ( General Mills is a big one) has most product coming from these sources just because its cheaper... One more point and probably the biggest one of all... The amount of cases of autism 30 years ago was 1 in 200,000. In that span if thirty years the use of roundup has increased dramatically and hand in hand so has autism, to the point that its now closer to 1 in 50 children to have some form of the disease. Some can be explained just in the awareness of the disease but not all!
Just something to think about

I have read that some of those round-up ready crops are succumbing to the weeds that originally could be kept at bay with the chemicals. Now they will have to either improve the seed or spray stronger chemical. It is a nasty little cycle. Time to jump off the merry-go-round.

 

[SallyinIndiana]

I hate it, but had to put saddles on two of my Cochins. They had beautiful cushions, till mating started and then they were practically bare. It seems to be helping, but I'm pretty sure my Roos size has a lot to do with it, he's huge. Once our CL are bigger, we'll be getting rid of this Cochin Roo and we'll see how the girls do after that.
Right now we have our broody Silkie on 4 of her eggs and 4 LF eggs, she's doing great. And all of a sudden we had a Cochin go broody and she managed to have 13 eggs under her. The Cochin girl gets up for about an hour every day, she eats and dust bathes then heads back in the barn. Hopefully that's not an issue.
Gotta clean up a bit...we've got guys coming to estimate A/C installation....I don't care about the price, I just need to not melt this summer!

I hope you got your air installed.
I like to stay cool too. I got a few of these cooling scarves. They work great. my DH has a couple for when he mows the yard too. His are plain though while mine have nice patterns and pretty colors.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.537085316326706.1073741824.102281836473725&type=1

 

[uglychickens]

[COLOR=800080]I have read that some of those round-up ready crops are succumbing to the weeds that originally could be kept at bay with the chemicals. Now they will have to either improve the seed or spray stronger chemical. It is a nasty little cycle. Time to jump off the merry-go-round. [/COLOR]

You got it!!!

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: Yes, true; I think I need to elucidate my meaning a bit clearer. I'm talking about the relationship between 'Commercial Production Layers' and the specific layer pellets. I'm aware of these characteristics you mention and the reasons why they were bred into them, but I have the opinion that these high production layers are not actually the healthiest birds for us since they cannot even remain in full health while performing to artificially (layer pellet) assisted and dependent genetic potential. If you allow them a diet that gives them the opportunity to restore their feathers, they don't lay as much; if you give them the diet they were developed on as a breed, they lay more eggs but aren't in such good shape. This mutually exclusive state of affairs, as far as I can see, means they're not laying the best eggs for human health while on the pellets formulated specifically to compel them to give the available protein to the constant egg laying even though their body is in need of the protein to restore itself. In other words, I don't think the 'eggs OR feathers, not both' situation is really a genetic trait that can be considered harmless or irrelevant health-wise. I think it's symptomatic of a badly unbalanced breed that needs more work on the genetics so they can supply their own protein needs (from more natural sources diet wise) as well as support such heavy production without dependence on specially formulated pellets to maintain the high output. I don't believe you get healthy eggs from a less than healthy hen; eggs themselves are not an inherent sign of total health.

Just my opinion and I'm not knocking anyone who keeps C.P.L's or feeds them pellets; each to their own, it's just my reasons for not doing the same. My family has more serious health issues than many so there isn't an option to consume less healthy foods if we can do better by ourselves.

I've read industry guidebooks detailing why they can't maintain good feathers and high egg production at one and the same time and I think it's a breed issue that hopefully will be overcome in future. It's also worth considering (at least in Australia) that all of these commercial layer breeds are related and come from limited family pools, which in fact the industry itself has been publicly fretting about. Trouble is spotted on the horizon due to lack of genetic diversity. These hens are of breeds developed to run themselves into the ground to make a nice round competitive number on the annual egg scoreboard. It's very driven by commercial chook math --- at date X after X amount of feed and X amount of financial input the egg quota had better equal X --- or else! This makes sense in industry terms but in the more esoteric terminology of health, we don't benefit much from consuming products from any sub-par animal. That's gotten us where we are today... Growing our own for our health's sake. Commercial farming success is not yet linked to nor due to full animal health. C.P.Layers in their current genetic expression/'incarnation' are symptomatic of this. It's not so much the genes that cause feather loss in production layers, it's their system's reaction to the layer pellets their breed was developed in conjunction with. Their genes respond to the pellets by overproducing eggs at the expense of the body's other protein needs. When you put them on a natural diet they're a little less productive but their presupposed genetic trait of feather loss suddenly somehow is no longer a trait. Hope I'm making sense... Need a coffee, lol...

Since I'm trying to grow for my own and my family's health, not to sell, that's not an objective in line with our needs, so that's why I take them off the layer pellets; they can then achieve supply of the protein needs they were unable to meet on the layer pellets, which allows them strong plumage, and to give better quality eggs. This will result in a few less eggs a year from each hen (but they are noticeably better quality which is my objective as I'm not a seller.) To the very best production layers from commercial bloodlines, the standard layer pellets are akin to a command entered into a program telling it to repeat a self-deleterious action ad infinitum until they either die in service or burn themselves out and get culled and replaced.

When layer breed eggs are tested for nutrient profiles and compared to basically any other breed's eggs, they're very poor quality. Organically fed and freerange layer's eggs do much better, but still not as good as the less-prolific breeds. The best laying breeds are determined as such by their sheer output every year rather than the actual nutritional quality of the produce. To achieve this they are bred to put the vast majority of all their intake of protein into constant egg production, which the layer pellets are formulated to support, so their feathers are weaker and they moult harder, and their flesh tends to be stringy, tasteless and tough.

The most heavy laying of these production layer breeds were developed on artificial diets that work with their specified genetics to force them to keep up a hectic laying pace all year at the expense of much vitality. I don't think the products of very heavy-production animals of any species and any overly commercially oriented breed are better for us than their slightly less productive relatives. As far as I can see it's a false economy, quantity over quality. No animal kept under any constant stress of any kind produces anything I consider a truly wholesome meal. An egg a day for a year (or slightly under) when not receiving enough protein to maintain full health is physiological stress; I think it's possible though to breed new strains that can receive full nutrition, enjoy full health, and still be so productive. I think these current commercial breeds reliant on layer pellets and sub-par health for full production quotas are a slight misstep or wrong turn but better strains will emerge in future. The backyard breeders of these production layers will likely drive that step, since they are seeking the egg count to remain as high as possible but tend to keep their birds on far superior diets to what battery and barn hens receive. Animals aren't machines so while we can tweak the breeds to be very efficient and productive, once we overdo it and the animal isn't able to maintain full health AND top production simultaneously, we're not getting the best health for ourselves either. Since my health is to be gained in the quality, I need to ensure it; if I were a commercial layer breeder/keeper my goals would obviously be quite different and I would be wanting that egg-a-day-all-year-from-each-hen idea.

More stuff I read in industry books on production layers: the commercial breeders bred their bodies to be smaller so they were more economical in housing and intake and didn't have lots of bone and muscle to grow before laying and maintain during and after. They weren't measuring feed economy as an inherited trait until fairly recently though so many of these hens must eat far more than chooks that size, even laying daily, should eat because they can't assimilate it as well as many other breeds. Some broiler chicks that were tested for feed economy were eating three chicken's meals and only processing under a third of all they ate.

Not to knock any who keep some birds only for eggs and others only for breeding, either. I know a lot of layers do have great lives compared to plenty of other chooks. My focus is more on an old style family flock, as some people have called it. All-purpose, sort of. I'm breeding for every quality in every bird rather than isolating them for isolated or mutually-divergent-if-overemphasized traits, even though a jack of all trades is a master of none. I don't want semi-crippled perpetually immature blobs who can't go free ranging and enjoy life, on one end of the scale, nor on the other hand do I want a constantly protein-needy egg-laying tube on legs who will be worth nothing more when her short period of service is over. If there's any one trait I want them to be masters of it's hardiness or 'rude' health, lol.

I want them to serve my needs and those of my family but also enjoy their lives and produce steadily good offspring, some of which will continue breeding. Any member of my flock starts off as an egg with a fair amount of equal potential; it has the potential to become a pet or meat or a breeder or layer, or all four, (lol) and I eat my breeder's eggs too when I'm not breeding them as I need to know what qualities they're passing onto the eggs. I also eat my ex breeders. They need to have good health, good flesh, good eggs, good social/flock mentalities, and last and least good looking feather pigmentation is nice. As they (used to) say, no good cow is a bad color.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: Different where you live obviously... Here it's one in ten, now. :S

Here in Australia we're one of the homes of Monsanto. People still use roundup like it's a family tradition. My family's been aware of their dangerous 'modern miracles' but only now are people starting to get up in arms about it.

Countries including Germany, and even South Australia, Austria, Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Japan, Luxembourg, Madeira, New Zealand, Peru, and Switzerland have rejected GMO and kicked out Monsanto. As much as you can remove rampant genetic crossing that has already escaped into the wild, anyway.

The genetically modified soy spread cross species into cottonweed and nearly caused the extinction of the Monarch butterfly, and RoundUp Ready contains glyphosate and 2-4-D, the active ingredient in Agent Orange, so everywhere it's been used some ugly stuff will occur including numerous health problems, birth defects, cancer, neurological imbalances, embryonic deaths, DNA damage, and fetal death. The other biotech megapowers include Syngenta, Pioneer (DuPont), Bayer (aspirin etc, and BASF.

What a saddening topic. Let's talk about chickens.

 

[groverlvchx]

Egg Sales​

A Brief Run-Down of the Rules
Farmers can sell eggs directly from their farm to individual customers with no licensing, registration, or inspection.
Farmers who want to sell eggs at their farmers' market stall may do so without licensing or registration. The eggs must be candled, labeled with the farmer's name and address, and kept at temperature of 45 degrees F or less. Eggs can be kept in a cooler with ice for up to 4 hours. For storage beyond 4 hours they should be in mechanical refrigeration.
Farmers with fewer than 3,000 hens who want to sell eggs to grocery stores, restaurants, or other food businesses can do so without a license, but they should register with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture as an exempt egg producer. There is a simple one-page registration form, and no fee for filing the form. Normally there is no inspection of a registered exempt egg producer. However, the MDA does have the right to inspect if they receive a complaint.
Exempt egg producers who sell eggs to food businesses must candle and grade eggs, and pack and label eggs according to federal regulations. Candled and graded eggs must be stored at a temperature of 45 degrees F or less.

Definitions​

Free-range eggs: These are eggs from hens that have access to a large outdoor area, although they may be fenced in to protect them from predators and thus not totally "free." The "have access to..." phrasing can also be an issue. Standards that require poultry to have access to the outdoors do not require the poultry to actually use that access. In some cases, the access provided is through a doorway so small that few or no birds venture outside. This situation has received some media coverage, and if you advertise free-range eggs you may be asked by customers to explain what you mean by free-range.
Pasture-raised eggs: This is nearly the same as free-range eggs; it assumes that the hens have a large outdoor area. Pasture-raised also means that the hens get a portion of their diet from grasses and other pasture plants.

Source: http://www.misa.umn.edu/FarmFoodResources/LocalFood/EggSales/ MN Institute for Sustainable Agriculture.

WOW I thought it would be tougher than that!! Maybe I can turn this into a business after all...(big dreamer here)

 

[aoxa]

Yes, true; I think I need to elucidate my meaning a bit clearer. I'm talking about the relationship between 'Commercial Production Layers' and the specific layer pellets. I'm aware of these characteristics you mention and the reasons why they were bred into them, but I have the opinion that these high production layers are not actually the healthiest birds for us since they cannot even remain in full health while performing to artificially (layer pellet) assisted and dependent genetic potential. If you allow them a diet that gives them the opportunity to restore their feathers, they don't lay as much; if you give them the diet they were developed on as a breed, they lay more eggs but aren't in such good shape. This mutually exclusive state of affairs, as far as I can see, means they're not laying the best eggs for human health while on the pellets formulated specifically to compel them to give the available protein to the constant egg laying even though their body is in need of the protein to restore itself. In other words, I don't think the 'eggs OR feathers, not both' situation is really a genetic trait that can be considered harmless or irrelevant health-wise. I think it's symptomatic of a badly unbalanced breed that needs more work on the genetics so they can supply their own protein needs (from more natural sources diet wise) as well as support such heavy production without dependence on specially formulated pellets to maintain the high output. I don't believe you get healthy eggs from a less than healthy hen; eggs themselves are not an inherent sign of total health.

Just my opinion and I'm not knocking anyone who keeps C.P.L's or feeds them pellets; each to their own, it's just my reasons for not doing the same. My family has more serious health issues than many so there isn't an option to consume less healthy foods if we can do better by ourselves.

I've read industry guidebooks detailing why they can't maintain good feathers and high egg production at one and the same time and I think it's a breed issue that hopefully will be overcome in future. It's also worth considering (at least in Australia) that all of these commercial layer breeds are related and come from limited family pools, which in fact the industry itself has been publicly fretting about. Trouble is spotted on the horizon due to lack of genetic diversity. These hens are of breeds developed to run themselves into the ground to make a nice round competitive number on the annual egg scoreboard. It's very driven by commercial chook math --- at date X after X amount of feed and X amount of financial input the egg quota had better equal X --- or else! This makes sense in industry terms but in the more esoteric terminology of health, we don't benefit much from consuming products from any sub-par animal. That's gotten us where we are today... Growing our own for our health's sake. Commercial farming success is not yet linked to nor due to full animal health. C.P.Layers in their current genetic expression/'incarnation' are symptomatic of this. It's not so much the genes that cause feather loss in production layers, it's their system's reaction to the layer pellets their breed was developed in conjunction with. Their genes respond to the pellets by overproducing eggs at the expense of the body's other protein needs. When you put them on a natural diet they're a little less productive but their presupposed genetic trait of feather loss suddenly somehow is no longer a trait. Hope I'm making sense... Need a coffee, lol...

Since I'm trying to grow for my own and my family's health, not to sell, that's not an objective in line with our needs, so that's why I take them off the layer pellets; they can then achieve supply of the protein needs they were unable to meet on the layer pellets, which allows them strong plumage, and to give better quality eggs. This will result in a few less eggs a year from each hen (but they are noticeably better quality which is my objective as I'm not a seller.) To the very best production layers from commercial bloodlines, the standard layer pellets are akin to a command entered into a program telling it to repeat a self-deleterious action ad infinitum until they either die in service or burn themselves out and get culled and replaced.

When layer breed eggs are tested for nutrient profiles and compared to basically any other breed's eggs, they're very poor quality. Organically fed and freerange layer's eggs do much better, but still not as good as the less-prolific breeds. The best laying breeds are determined as such by their sheer output every year rather than the actual nutritional quality of the produce. To achieve this they are bred to put the vast majority of all their intake of protein into constant egg production, which the layer pellets are formulated to support, so their feathers are weaker and they moult harder, and their flesh tends to be stringy, tasteless and tough.

The most heavy laying of these production layer breeds were developed on artificial diets that work with their specified genetics to force them to keep up a hectic laying pace all year at the expense of much vitality. I don't think the products of very heavy-production animals of any species and any overly commercially oriented breed are better for us than their slightly less productive relatives. As far as I can see it's a false economy, quantity over quality. No animal kept under any constant stress of any kind produces anything I consider a truly wholesome meal. An egg a day for a year (or slightly under) when not receiving enough protein to maintain full health is physiological stress; I think it's possible though to breed new strains that can receive full nutrition, enjoy full health, and still be so productive. I think these current commercial breeds reliant on layer pellets and sub-par health for full production quotas are a slight misstep or wrong turn but better strains will emerge in future. The backyard breeders of these production layers will likely drive that step, since they are seeking the egg count to remain as high as possible but tend to keep their birds on far superior diets to what battery and barn hens receive. Animals aren't machines so while we can tweak the breeds to be very efficient and productive, once we overdo it and the animal isn't able to maintain full health AND top production simultaneously, we're not getting the best health for ourselves either. Since my health is to be gained in the quality, I need to ensure it; if I were a commercial layer breeder/keeper my goals would obviously be quite different and I would be wanting that egg-a-day-all-year-from-each-hen idea.

More stuff I read in industry books on production layers: the commercial breeders bred their bodies to be smaller so they were more economical in housing and intake and didn't have lots of bone and muscle to grow before laying and maintain during and after. They weren't measuring feed economy as an inherited trait until fairly recently though so many of these hens must eat far more than chooks that size, even laying daily, should eat because they can't assimilate it as well as many other breeds. Some broiler chicks that were tested for feed economy were eating three chicken's meals and only processing under a third of all they ate.

Not to knock any who keep some birds only for eggs and others only for breeding, either. I know a lot of layers do have great lives compared to plenty of other chooks. My focus is more on an old style family flock, as some people have called it. All-purpose, sort of. I'm breeding for every quality in every bird rather than isolating them for isolated or mutually-divergent-if-overemphasized traits, even though a jack of all trades is a master of none. I don't want semi-crippled perpetually immature blobs who can't go free ranging and enjoy life, on one end of the scale, nor on the other hand do I want a constantly protein-needy egg-laying tube on legs who will be worth nothing more when her short period of service is over. If there's any one trait I want them to be masters of it's hardiness or 'rude' health, lol.

I want them to serve my needs and those of my family but also enjoy their lives and produce steadily good offspring, some of which will continue breeding. Any member of my flock starts off as an egg with a fair amount of equal potential; it has the potential to become a pet or meat or a breeder or layer, or all four, (lol) and I eat my breeder's eggs too when I'm not breeding them as I need to know what qualities they're passing onto the eggs. I also eat my ex breeders. They need to have good health, good flesh, good eggs, good social/flock mentalities, and last and least good looking feather pigmentation is nice. As they (used to) say, no good cow is a bad color.

That's a lot to take in!

I should mention that I myself am against layer pellets 100%. I try my best to provide the best for my birds. That includes a varied diet and total free range. I have never noticed a difference in egg quality between my breeds made for egg production (Red Sex Links) VS some heritage breeds that I've kept like Barred Plymouth Rocks, RIR and Delaware. The eggs from all of those birds I had were very much the same taste wise and in appearance. I have never heard of a high producing hen producing eggs that are less than ideal if given the right feed and environment.

 

[camilleathome]

That's a lot to take in!

I should mention that I myself am against layer pellets 100%. I try my best to provide the best for my birds. That includes a varied diet and total free range. I have never noticed a difference in egg quality between my breeds made for egg production (Red Sex Links) VS some heritage breeds that I've kept like Barred Plymouth Rocks, RIR and Delaware. The eggs from all of those birds I had were very much the same taste wise and in appearance. I have never heard of a high producing hen producing eggs that are less than ideal if given the right feed and environment.

Hey aoxa is it possible the reason the other eggs were paler is because they WERE fed layer? that morning that we each ate one egg from your flock and one egg from your local farmers market and were commenting on the difference Im still wondering what caused it since my eggs are the same quality and colour as yours. nice orange yolk

 

[Ashdoes]

Here's a question, now that its warming up outside...should I continue to keep my eggs on the counter? Or is it getting too warm for them to stay fresh and unspoiled?
Oh! A while back we were talking about coconut oil, and someone asked if you can bake with it. Well, after becoming addicted to my coconut oil popcorn I decided to give baking with it a try. Banana Bread, replaced 1/3 cup butter with 1/3 cup coconut oil. My bread didn't rise, I'm not sure if that's the oil or maybe my baking soda is bad? Anyways the bread was moist and delicious. I need to find a calculator to see if there is a difference in calories and fat...I'm not a counter, but it's always fun to compare.
On the A/C....holy cow! That's all I have to say...