I guess thats the kind of response I might have expected from the breeders - if they were to allow themselves to consider there was a problem, that would be perhaps unthinkable to them. Not saying it is ok, but it is the kind of denial that some people practice when the reality is too tough - if their flock is infected then what? I'm thinking a good breeder would have carefully looked over the birds before selling them and would have noticed the nasal discharge. Also, would have said bring them back (even if they would have had to cull them versus risking bringing something from your place to theirs....)
Have you been offering free choice garlic - fresh, chopped - to the ill birds? its a good immune booster and antiviral. It will not hurt and could definitely support them. I would be sure to give them the choice. You might want to take one clove per bird, chopp it, and top dress it with a few bits of corn or oats or something that will appeal to them to get past the "its new and I don't like it" stage. If they take it all, offer more. If they leave it alone, try it again later with perhaps a different "bait" - maybe yogurt (unsweetened and with probiotics) or watermelon.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that you get the best news possible from the vet testing.
On the vetrx, it might make them more comfortable depending on how heavy the discharge is. You could discontinue it - when I use it, which is rare, I use it just a few days. I can't really provide any good reasoning for that however!
Thank you Lala. I tried the garlic mixed with plain yogurt and sprinkled their S&P over it (dried not fermented) and they only pecked at the top. Maybe I'll try the garlic mixed with just some FF tomorrow. I put a hanging feeder in their the other day, so I just gave them one serving of the FF today. I tried the Vetrx on them directly at least 5 days last week but may try again. I also tried it in their water (in a bowl on top like the directions say since it would only float on top of their chicken nipple bottles and they wouldn't get to it) and also sprinkled some in their feed.
@JulesChicks I have been reading your posts and had to look at your location (several times) because all the way across the country... I'm singing the same tune. I purchased 4 juveniles and 2 hens about 3 weeks ago from a heritage breeder. I did research and took my time being careful because, like you, i didn't want hatchery stock. I purchased 2 Javas (1 white and 1 mottled), 2 Amerucanas (1 blue and 1 black), and 2 Barred Rocks. I inspected them all when upon purchase. Within 24 hours of being home, the Mottled Java showed the same symptoms as your "patient zero". Then went the Blue Amerucana- but not nearly as bad (she never sneezed or had the runny nose- just slept a lot). Now one of the Barred Rocks- but only the sneezing.
They are all in quarantine away from all other chickens- and have been since we brought them home. Granted it's the waiting room of hell here (and has been for weeks) but we have fans going to keep the sauna like air moving. We are careful with biosecurity as well so we don't accidentally infect anyone else.
I emailed the breeder who told me that he had noticed several others with the same symptoms (DUDE! WHAT?!?!). His farm is NPIP certified. He had called the state vet and they recommended Tylan. I wasn't comfortable giving the chickens injections, so after several days of trying garlic water/ electrolytes &probiotics, we went the route of oxytetracyline- which seemed to help. But now based on what you've said from your vet (FDA regulations)- i've got 6 chickens (yep i treated everyone
) that i should have just taken back to the breeder or culled (which i don't really want to do). we use our chickens for laying hens and are starting up heritage breeding.
I have the State tech coming tomorrow
for our NPIP re-certification. what a hot mess.
What a bummer! Yes, it does seem like we're in a very similar situation. Since you were NPIP certified you know that that only covers a small number of diseases (or is it just one?) - but there are so many others that can make them sick. Some breeders are now advertising AI clean too. So sorry you are dealing with this. I got started pullets wanting eggs sooner and hoping they would be healthier but next time I will go with chicks - especially since I too like the heritage and rare breeds. How did your NPIP re-cert go??
@dutchlion
Both of your experiences are very similar to what I keep hearing from folks that purchase started birds. Makes me
It gives me more reinforcement to stick with my decision NOT to purchase started birds.
I've wavered on that a couple times, but now reading this - which is adding to a heap of folks I already know who have experienced similar - it helps me keep my resolve.
Ditto!
I personally don't use pharmaceutical antibiotics for disease. I will use antibiotic if needed for an injury. (Reserved for emergency only.....)
That's my personal philosophy of "natural" husbandry. My goal is to propagate birds that have strong, healthy immune systems and avoid the growth of antibiotic resistant bacteria.
I bought the antibiotics - the Duramycin was what the feed store has (tetracycline hydrochloride) but I haven't used it yet for this very reason - not to mention the new one the Vet gave me!
I have fed dry organic oregano from time to time. Not for anything in particular, I used to just add it into the feed in the winter on occasion.
Oregano oil is very strong. I usually have the dry organic Frontier oregano that I can purchase in a lb. package from one of the local stores for a reasonable price. Then I seal it into a jar with my jar sealer and put some in from time to time. I have used a drop or 2 of the eo on occasion when using the dry, but it is very strong so I wouldn't use much.
I didn't give it for any particular reason.... no illness.... so I don't have experience to know what it would do for the symptoms you're seeing.
I was also wondering about oregano oil. I need to research EOs that are safe for poultry. I've read articles but I don't think there were as in depth as they could have been.
I meant to ask, on the garlic in the water, do you just bruise it and plop the clove in? They have chicken nipple water bottles in their tractor so I don't want to clog up the nipples.
Update:
So, I took the sick bird back again because the Vet was able to get ahold of the state Vet who was out on Tuesday and she wanted one more sample prepared. So we FedEx'd several swabs and blood samples yesterday and they were expecting to start on them today. Some tests would be faster than others, with the PCR - a culture - to take the longest, that would be for MG. They're also doing an antibody test for the MG from the blood sample and the following tests- Avian Influenza, S. pullorum/typhoid, Mycoplasma synoviae, Newcastle, Infectious bronchitis, Infectious bursal disease and Bacteria isolation & id. So, in all 9 tests for 8 diseases, the MG PCR test being the most costly I think at $50, the other 8, $20. Add in shipping and the cost of the Vet visit and were at about $150 - more than the $130 I paid for 2 POL SFHs, 1 POL CL, and 3 months old pullets that are CL and Black Copper Marans (the 3 that are sick). BUT, if I can get some good information from this, maybe it won't cost me my whole flock. The Vet called at the end of the day but I was out with the birds and he didn't leave a message. He probably has word back on some of the quicker tests and hopefully I'll touch base with him in the morning.
Information that may be useful:
The Vet was kind enough to copy some things for me since the breeder questioned what the Vet told me about not being able to consume eggs or meat after giving antibiotics - she said she went to the FDAs site and didn't see anything on it. So, there is a website called
www.farad.org which stands for Food Animal Residue Avoidance Databank. The vets themselves admit it is difficult to get answers there, but it is a congressionally mandated risk-managment program supported by the good ol' USDA. Then my new Vet was kind enough to print off a Vet-to-Vet board discussion (for Vet eyes only) on this very subject. The vet who started the conversation had attended a conference where 2 antibiotics were recommended for backyard laying hens but he couldn't remember for sure which 2, thus he posed the question to the board. The first response was from a vet in Greenville, SC who stated "If you're talking about active layers, if you are selling or giving away the eggs, zero antibiotics are approved by the Feds." So, presumably you could possibly eat them yourself after a withdrawal period?(yes) The conversation continued because the vet who started it was in fact asking about his parents hen and he knew they wouldn't be brushed off. Another vet told him to check FARAD for withdrawal times but from their own brief search could not find any antibiotics that could be used in layers as therapeutic drugs (outside of coccidiostats and medicated feeds) and stated "problem is residues can remain for a long time following treatment". The first vet to comment came back on to say "for commercial producers, FDA does random antibiotic sampling of retail eggs and meat and producers face huge fines if residues are detected". This is one reason, I think, that with the AI epidemic we are seeing huge commercial bird populations de-populated (and of course to stop the spread quickly instead of waiting for a drug to work). There was some more interesting discussion but I'll state the last post briefly and then I'm off to bed... This lady vet said that when she uses antibiotics in (backyard) laying hens she usually goes with oxytetracycline (poultry approved) or amoxicillin. She says the sulfas work nicely but they take much longer to exit the hens system. If using the amoxicillin she only uses it in the affected hen. And finally, if you are going to treat a flock that is used for selling eggs, you MUST be more careful and diligent in treating and could face serious legal issues.
That all being said, I'm still in a wait and see and may not use them. It may help the three sick birds but if they get better and make it to laying age, then my family would have to consume those eggs and I don't want my family consuming eggs with residues either. Geesh!
I'll keep y'all posted! Goodnight!