The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[cywiar merch]

I lost my roo, Gunnar.

Monday he was fine and today he passed away on the ride to the veterinarian.

Yesterday he became a bit lethargic and disoriented. No respiratory symptoms - clear eyes/nose... but last night the top of his comb started turning a purple/black color... and today he died.

I'm pretty torn up over this, not to mention worried about the rest of my flock... and I won't have answers for a couple days. (These will be the longest couple days in history!)

I took this picture of him on Sunday... picture of health.

So Sorry BDM, I just caught up and saw this. He was so beautiful. I enjoyed seeing him in your articles. Hoping it won't be anything that affect the rest of your flock.

 

[FarmerJH]

wouldn't you have to own a bagger to do that? I had a bagger, and it was in the barn, and we really don't want another, because it takes forever to mow the lawn with a bagger.

I also lost my noise cancelling ear phones, or whatever you call them that you wear while mowing. I am so tense while mowing now. I have super sensitive hearing and it really bothers me.

Anyone ever tell you how hard it is to remember everything you had when a fire happens? Sally8 knows I'm sure. I still remember random things I forgot to add to the list.

Nope, no bagger needed. Its pretty redneck around here - my mower shoots it out the side and it ends up being little rows that I let dry in the sun for a couple days then rake it up and put in old paper feed bags with a pitchfork. I store it in the toolshed, which is pretty dry and dark. I haven't found any mold yet with this method. As for the headphones, I've never been able to afford noise canceling ones so I use regular earbud headphones under my shooting ear muffs and that seems to work pretty well and I can still hear well without the ringing and headache of not wearing any ear protection. Maybe that could be a temp fix for you in the meantime?

 

[Leahs Mom]

Quote:
Okay...here is my thought on this - subject to change if I learn something more!

(Getting on soapbox

...When you see this guy, it's a warning that a loooonnnnnggggg post is coming. You can skip the whole post and not get totally bored with my stuff.... read or skip as you desire!

)



-When they say a feed is "X% protein" they are referring to the dried grain/legume, "as-is" and stating the protein level. Therefore, in essence, the feed is really providing a lower level of protein than it states due to its indigestibility.

-Let's "pretend", for example sake, that if we ferment or sprout that same grain, we get the whole amount of protein stated in a totally digestible, form that is useable by the body. (We can only pretend because there are so many variables such as the nutrients in the soil it's grown in, the length of time fermented/sprouted, chemical fertilizers and pesticides applied, etc.- which all affect useability.)

-If the above statements are true, then your fermented or sprouted feed would provide what you've been told you're getting. So say it states 18% - you're getting 18%.

Now here's where the problem lies. When they state the percentages of protein that need to be in feed, this is based on experimental outcomes. They've learned that to perform at best, birds in different states/category (age, pullet, rooster, broiler..) need a base of the number stated on the packages of dry grain/legume based feed. However, this DOES NOT take into account that a good percentage of that protein goes unused by the body.

Because of that, we really DON'T KNOW what the protein percentage should be for each category of bird. We just know that, adjusting for the loss in grain and legume based feeds, they need to have a minimum of what has been stated through the testing of those kinds of feeds.


So...herein lies a problem. We really don't know what percent of digestable/useable protein our birds really need to perform at peak level.

It would stand to reason that if you are using whole, fresh, grains and legumes (not "processed" pellets/crumble, etc.) that are fermented or sprouted, you could get away with a lower protein percent. If you're adding animal protein to the mix - which is highly digestible/useable - you could probably lower it even more.

I have never seen anything that clearly states a 3% increase in available protein percentage backed by research but I'd like to see it if it's out there.

I have a hunch that it is somewhat higher than that, but again, it depends on so many variables in how the items were grown (including which pesticides and chemical fertilizers are used which also can bind certain nutrients as well.)


So...the conclusion? Until there are many experimental studies done using sprouted or fermented grain/legume based feeds and lowering the protein given to each category of bird until performance begins to go downhill (or stated another way, finding the lowest protein percentage at which they thrive), you would have to do your own experimentation to see how performance is affected in your flock.

So...if you're willing to try that, you would at least have anecdotal evidence based on your flock, your particular grain/legume mix and source.


(This is true of calcium and mineral levels as well... If feeds are fermented or sprouted, it reduces (and may totally eliminate) the need for supplementation of calcium and minerals. I WILL post that information soon...still don't have the time at this moment!)

 

[RedRidge]

Quote:
Okay...here is my thought on this - subject to change if I learn something more!
...........

Excellent post, Leah's Mom... I agree with everything you said... So... here's the original question in a different form...

Because I have only the "referred to" but never able to verify 3% potential increase in protein to consider... what should be the min and max broad rage protein goals for the different management groups? In other people's opinions and with their experiences?

My suspicion is the most folks are really feeding less protein than they really think because much of it is not animal protein and much of it is not very digestible.
That said... I don't know of anyone fermenting already high percentage rations and am curious how their results (growth, health and laying) compare to those feeding an overall lower percentage...
Thus... there must be "something" they perceive they are getting that is beneficial out of high protein diets and the assumption can be made that they are seeing no negative side effects to these diets (other than their wallets) or they wouldn't continue feeding it.

So the original question is... what are the perceived or actual benefits of the higher than average protein diets?

 

[mg15]

Sorry...Bulldogma
your rooster picture is beautiful......

 

[Leahs Mom]

For your question:
I don't have enough length of experience to even have anecdotal evidence to compare one group to another. Additionally, my kiddos have never been on a "veg only" protein ration so I can't comment on differences. I do know that they seem to be thriving on what they're getting and I know that I feed a higher level of animal protein sourced food than is typical.




Opinion again... But based on some research...

It seems that one of the negative effects of VEGETABLE PROTEIN in too high percentage is gout (and there are some other issues too as there are certain nutrients that just aren't available in vegetable sources that are present in animal sources). However, the same problem in determining specifics applies as it is the anti-nutrients that are in the veg. protein that haven't been properly prepared that seem to be a major part of the cause the problems in that regard.

One thing that has been pretty well proven is that higher amounts of protein from ANIMAL SOURCES does not cause any of the negative effects as you find in veg. protein.

So my opinion is that if it is from a veg. source, you need to be somewhat careful; animal source - not an issue.


And.... I have a question for you, RR.

What is your biggest concern in this area?
-Are you wanting to know this because you want to be able to reduce feed costs by giving only what you need to use? OR
-Is this a concern that your birds will be unhealthy if not done correctly? OR...
-??

Just wanting to be sure we're addressing the concern!

 

[RedRidge]

For your question:
I don't have enough length of experience to even have anecdotal evidence to compare one group to another. Additionally, my kiddos have never been on a "veg only" protein ration so I can't comment on differences. I do know that they seem to be thriving on what they're getting and I know that I feed a higher level of animal protein sourced food than is typical.




Opinion again... But based on some research...

It seems that one of the negative effects of VEGETABLE PROTEIN in too high percentage is gout (and there are some other issues too as there are certain nutrients that just aren't available in vegetable sources that are present in animal sources). However, the same problem in determining specifics applies as it is the anti-nutrients that are in the veg. protein that haven't been properly prepared that seem to be a major part of the cause the problems in that regard.

One thing that has been pretty well proven is that higher amounts of protein from ANIMAL SOURCES does not cause any of the negative effects as you find in veg. protein.

So my opinion is that if it is from a veg. source, you need to be somewhat careful; animal source - not an issue.


And.... I have a question for you, RR.

What is your biggest concern in this area?
-Are you wanting to know this because you want to be able to reduce feed costs by giving only what you need to use? OR
-Is this a concern that your birds will be unhealthy if not done correctly? OR...
-??

Just wanting to be sure we're addressing the concern!

I am anal and like to know for certain what my lower and upper level limits are at all times to continually see good results,
I don't really have a "current"concern as I seem to have very healthy birds that I'm quite pleased with... but I always love to hear what others are doing that they are happy with and compare the two so that I have some sort of idea what is working for other folks as well.
So... more of a curiosity than anything... as I am an information junky.
I also tend to feed a LOT more animal protein than most folks, I suspected you did also just from some other conversations we've had... but there are those that feed very little animal protein but high vegetable protein and I'm wondering what the long term effects of that could be. Again... information to store away in the filing cabinet that sits on my shoulders.
I dislike being tied into ONE way of doing things. It can be limiting when a specific ingredient because unavailable for instance. I like keeping my options open for those ingredients that I don't raise that are (or may become) hard to come by in the future.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I think Delisha and Mumsy would be good to hear from on their experiences using fermented vs. dry. Both of them have fed flocks for years and I'm SURE they have some comparisons they can share!

 

[Child of Noah]

Every single month... same thing... fill up the feed bucket.
My 6 chickens go through about 8-10 pounds of feed per month (that's a 12 pound feeder, and isn't completely empty). My 5 farty baby ducklings who are in a pen and not free ranging yet go through nearly two pounds per day.
I was just thinking... I will probably need to learn some new tricks when winter comes. Question for those who primarily allow their chickens to free range or forage (particularly in more northern areas where it freezes)... what should I expect or do when winter comes?
FF kind of frightens me since (at least currently) they require so little of what I provide... if it sets out will it go bad?

 

[countrygirl74]

And you always have the one kid (upper left) wandering away when your going over the rules!

Very cute little fuzzy butts!!

Love it!!



Grrr..... I can't wait until I can get my mash again!!! The co-op was out last month and I've had to buy organic crumble locally - since I don't really like fermenting crumble, I've just been feeding dry until I can get my usual feed. They are going through almost 50lbs in 1 1/2 weeks!!!! With my fermented mash, I can make it almost a month!