The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[Quailsong]

Okay. That IS how Paneer is made - just as you describe.

So, in short, the whey from that process is not a LAB containing ingredient. You can use it for a soup base, etc., but the process used in making that kind of cheese is not a fermentation process and does not contain live active cultures.

We can discuss the cheeses more in PM if you want to continue the conversation - so we don't bore everyone!

And..I'm off to bed for the night so if you PM I'll catch you tomorrow

That makes sense then. I'd def love to do a PM convo with you & yeah I'm out as well. Sleep well!

 

[aaggjg]

So wait, we don't get rid of the rice until it scums a week later? & so the rice is scum & we throw that out after? If so, I think I got it.

NO sorry did I forget DRAIN OOOOPPPPSSS!!!

 

[starlingdaly]

starlingdaly, as I've yet to get a solid sourdough culture going, I'll have to agree. I'm good with quick ferments, like Injera. But so far it seems challenging to maintain. Granted, I'm moving very soon so my mind's a bit more than distracted.

Sourdough is high maintenance! If you can just form a habit if feeding twice daily (forgetting once in a while is okay) then it's not too bad and of course totally worth it! It's the only sourdough I trust to not give me GI issues.

I think ACV will be a good second project in my fermenting experiments. I've got gallon jugs that would be perfect!

We can discuss the cheeses more in PM if you want to continue the conversation - so we don't bore everyone!

Not boring.. Fascinating! To me, at least.

Float tested my eggs. None sank. Neither did any wiggle any more than could be interpreted as just sort of bobbling in the water from being placed in. Unsure what that means. Putting them back in the incubator, and just saying that cut off is friday. If nothing hatches by then I'm declaring them dead. So discouraging to have a total failure like this. 

I'm so sorry to hear that.
Still got time though! Do an eggtopsy on one before throwing out the whole batch just in case!
I cracked an egg today that was day 18 and it made a loud popping sound... Like given another day it would've exploded... So maybe best to eggtopsy outside next to the compost.

 

[Pozees]

I think I could handle 40 (maybe more) acres by myself (more or less, I'd need help occasionally) because if I had that much I'd raise cattle (and possibly other large stock, but definitely cattle) and a few horses to ride to check said cattle. So like 1/2-1 acre for the house and surrounding permaculture beds, 2 or so for fruit trees and shrubs and a large annual garden, then the rest would just be pasture and hay ground. Why don't I list chickens? I'd probably have a coop near the house for breeding and raising chicks, and just because I love having chickens around the yard, but if I had that much property and the resources to buy/build all the necessary infrastructure, I would do intensive rotational grazing and follow the cattle with chickens, which would be housed in large mobile houses. And obviously I would need a LGD to guard the chickens... See, I have it all planned out! The only thing missing is the money to fund said idea...


Not to be a pain-in-the-butt know-it-all, but moles are insectavores. It's a common misconception that moles eat roots, bulbs, and root crops, but it's not true. They may nibble a veggie here or there, but never enough to do much damage. It was more likely pocket gophers, which are really common here in MN. I tell you this not to be a know-it-all (well, that might be part of it) but because it may help you control them if you know what is actually stealing your crop!

40 acres is barely enough to graze one cow/steer without supplemental feed. True x 2 on moles. They are there for the grubs. Gophers are the problem for plants.

When we bought our place it had been used first by cattle, judiciously as part of a large ranch, then by 7 horses as a separated property, who grazed it to nothingness. Local Cooperative Extension Agent told us to just leave it to Nature for at least 10 years. We are in our 7th year, and have had drought for 5 of them, so it will more likely be 15 years before it comes back to the grassland prairie it should be. The Antelope still come through and graze so there is a little there, but not sustenance for any kept grazing animal, so for now we will try to keep alive what is near the house and hope for rain for the rest. Chickens are the only option for what we have right now, and at the moment we are focused on erecting coops and runs to keep the chickens in the areas we want them to browse for bugs and away from the gardens/beds we use for food and ornamentals. I take it back - we could well utilize goats for noxious and other weeds but would need to erect shelter and so far the money has not been available for that.

 

[brandislee]

Got it. I figured I was reading that wrong somehow. Just didn't know where. Thank you, Leahs Mom.

starlingdaly, as I've yet to get a solid sourdough culture going, I'll have to agree. I'm good with quick ferments, like Injera. But so far it seems challenging to maintain. Granted, I'm moving very soon so my mind's a bit more than distracted.

I bought a starter culture for my sourdough. Before I did I thought buying a starter was dumb and wasteful when you could just catch one pretty easily, but the wild yeast here tastes like

. I tried every trick in the book to make it taste better and nothing worked. The purchased starter tastes fantastic.

So far as caring for sourdough, it's easy. I keep it in the fridge til I need it, then take it out and feed it. Let it sit for a few hours and it's ready to use. Then it gets fed again and stuck in the fridge. There's no real need to feed it every day. If it gets more on the sour side I feed it a few times a day for a few days to sweeten it up. I've kept starter in the fridge for like 6 weeks without feeding it. It would have to be pretty bad for me to throw it out. No matter how bad the noxious black liquid on the top is or how much bloom there is on top (the white layer of yeast that grows on top of the liquid, I just pour that off and feed it. One tip- don't shut the container tightly when you put it in the fridge. If the starter can't breath it will make it get super noxious. Fridge or not, I keep mine covered with a little square of cheese cloth (well, actually butter muslin... a little square of fabric would be good, cheese cloth holes are too big and would let vinegar flies in) secured with a jar ring.

I'm going to have to ask this question because people often call cheeses by names that aren't their real names...

When you say "Paneer", is your process to heat the milk to a high temperature and use an acid (lemon juice, etc.) to cause it to curdle?

I need to know the answer to that before I can answer if you can use the whey as a LAB containing item.


************
I mostly use a basic mesophillic culture (LAB bacterial culture) for most of the cheeses I make. I could do these by allowing a natural culture (wild culturing from what is native in the air), but I have chosen to use specific cultures that I purchase. Otherwise, it is raw milk with just the addition of the mesophillic culture.

I make a variety of pressed cheeses including Caerphilly and Darby ("cheddar style" cheeses that don't require quite as long an aging period as cheddar does) Queso Fresco (which is designed to eat right away but I allow a short aging period because I like a sharper flaver); Several fresh cheeses including Fromage Blanc, Feta, Chevre; and a few others.

eta: I center on raw milk cheeses - these cheeses are all made under 100 degrees in their "cooking" process.

Traditional Indian Paneer is made using vinegar or lemon/lime juice. Heat is usually incorporated, sometimes with acidic ingredient as it's warming up, or as it cools. Sometimes I use those, or I use another citrus (orange!) I also let it curdle non-heated on its own for a week by itself, via yogurt or even kefir grains (as I now have those). That may or may not be the right way to do it, depending on how so-and-so tradition/culture makes it, but it makes cheese so it works for me.

My main focus is wild cheese that is simple to make. I'm not a fan of commercial starters, although if I could buy a one-time & keep it going indefinitely (much like kefir, unlike yogurt) I would definitely be up for that. I've a special fondness for blue although I've no hopes on replicating that safely. I'm also interested in aging cheese for much longer than a week, but I'm well aware that's a whole 'nother ballgame.

I'm in the same boat with canning, actually. I can frozen can stuff, but pressure cook stuff is still out of my league. I will have more tools & storage for it in the next house though. So it won't hurt to make some mistakes there.

lalaland, sounds like a mislabeled bag. You could always try to sprout the feed, or ferment it. Or even just ground it up in an old blender/coffee grinder.

I have heard and read the descriptions for making paneer a few times- how is it different from DIY ricotta? And I realize that the DIY ricotta isn't real ricotta (which is made using whey, not milk). So is the DIY ricotta actually paneer? Just wondering. But for the person that was asking, the answer is no, the whey from making farmer cheese/paneer doesn't have LAB because it isn't cultured, it's just what's left behind when the acid causes the milk solids to congeal.

 

[Pozees]

Float tested my eggs. None sank. Neither did any wiggle any more than could be interpreted as just sort of bobbling in the water from being placed in. Unsure what that means. Putting them back in the incubator, and just saying that cut off is friday. If nothing hatches by then I'm declaring them dead. So discouraging to have a total failure like this.

Had the exact same experience with CL eggs. So bummed.

 

[starlingdaly]

Had the exact same experience with CL eggs.  So bummed.

Did any of them begin developing? Were they not viable to begin with or quitters?

I have some CL eggs incubating and so far 10/16 show signs of growth. Only on the 5th day though so some of the others may still develop.

 

[aaggjg]

Interesting! I make farmers or polish cheese (aka Paneer in India) so I've plenty of whey to use for baking or whatever. On a slight de-rail, might I ask how you make your various cheeses if you do them from scratch?

I've thought about 'seeding' my cheeses w/ the store bought stuff via shredding. I know it wouldn't do -much- but even just to impart a bit of flavour and/or stretch a good cheese is a good enough goal.

I was going to ask where LM's cheese making thread was!!!!

 

[starlingdaly]

I bought a starter culture for my sourdough.  Before I did I thought buying a starter was dumb and wasteful when you could just catch one pretty easily, but the wild yeast here tastes like .  I tried every trick in the book to make it taste better and nothing worked.  The purchased starter tastes fantastic.

So far as caring for sourdough, it's easy.  I keep it in the fridge til I need it, then take it out and feed it.  Let it sit for a few hours and it's ready to use.  Then it gets fed again and stuck in the fridge.  There's no real need to feed it every day.  If it gets more on the sour side I feed it a few times a day for a few days to sweeten it up.  I've kept starter in the fridge for like 6 weeks without feeding it.  It would have to be pretty bad for me to throw it out.  No matter how bad the noxious black liquid on the top is or how much bloom there is on top (the white layer of yeast that grows on top of the liquid, I just pour that off and feed it.  One tip- don't shut the container tightly when you put it in the fridge.  If the starter can't breath it will make it get super noxious.  Fridge or not, I keep mine covered with a little square of cheese cloth (well, actually butter muslin... a little square of fabric would be good, cheese cloth holes are too big and would let vinegar flies in) secured with a jar ring.

Funny thing, mine has been in the fridge since January or February and it looks okay but it's definitely going to need a few days of care before making bread out of the poor thing!

I made mine from scratch and I guess got lucky? because mine tastes great. I do add additional bread yeast when baking it as the natural yeast is not sufficient for a good fluffy rise. Good bread if I had no other choice, but I would rather it not be so dense.

 

[Ashdoes]

Goodness, am I supposed to be feeding this starter twice a day!? The links I read said every four days...sigh. This is hard. I've got a wild starter going right now, but it's a little odd at the moment. I'm working on it.
And to make this "chicken" it's super cute watching the chicks scurry under the Eco glow, they learned real quick what it was for. After a couple hours they're eating the FF just fine.