The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[lazy gardener]

Agreed on just letting nature run its course. Survival of the fittest, natural selection and all that jazz makes a lot more sense to me than "wipe out the ill, bleach your entire property, then start over again with delicate, immuno-compromised birds and practice strict bio-security!"

As for selling the ones I'm not keeping, I'll advertise them as disease-resistant, cocci-immune and free-range raised. Or something like that. Out here, unless you're buying the vaccinated birds from a breeder, your buying a bird that's got SOMETHING. (Trust me, I know!) I'll just tell people they've already been sick so they should be good to go

Of course, for those adding to existing flocks, I'll just let them know that if their birds haven't been sick yet then maybe they might not want mine unless kept separately.

There are some respiratory diseases that pose a life time threat to any new birds they are exposed to, even when the bird who was sick is fully recovererd. So, if you are ever to sell birds, it would be important to let the potential buyer know that you have had a respiratory disease in your flock that killed all of the youngsters. If I were a potential buyer, I would be appalled to buy one of your birds and find this out after the fact. I'm not trying to be mean here, but that's why quarantine is such a big deal, and why I won't bring any new birds into my flock except as day olds from hatchery, or as hatching eggs. There've been a number of folks who have brought in contaminated stock, and had it make their entire flocks sick. They've had to cull their entire flocks, sanitize their property, wait out the incubation period and then start over from scratch. And, yes, I understand the survival of the fittest, and how it leads to increased disease resistance in the long term, but we have to be responsible to each other in the short term.

The guy that's getting all my EE pullets is old-fashioned in his thinking so I'm sure he'll be happy that they've all already been ill as well as gone through coccidiosis. Nothing worse than bringing home a bunch of young chickens and have some randomly drop dead over the next few days (as has happened to me, whereby after inquiring as to what illness they had the seller replies: I just had a breeder over this morning who said my birds are perfectly healthy.).

Wouldn't breeding survivors versus culling an entire flock be the better long-term solution, no matter WHAT the bug is? Disease of all kinds will always be around and always mutating no matter how we try to stop it. Just look at human diseases like smallpox, tb, measles etc that we THOUGHT we'd wiped out but are now coming back with a vengeance... And because our parents were vaccinated and didn't get sick, if we get sick it'll likely affect us worse as a result.

 

[Shan30]

I want to do a survey!  For those of you that have experienced using a broody hen to hatch and brood:

Is there any breed that has a tendency to help the new youngsters become part of the flock as they become "teenagers" and come into adolescence?  Have you experienced a hen that continued to help them become part of the flock as they are coming into adulthood rather than ditching them and even becoming aggressive toward them herself?


Is this a "breed tendency" or is it an "individual bird tendency".


 

I would have to say that my Ameraucanas are the best moms I have. They go broody frequently, stay broody, are great teachers and fiercely protective. They do ditch their kids at various ages, never too early for them to make it and they do continue to protect them for a while if necessary.

My silkies go broody often but they don't seem to stick it out as well and are definitely not as opposing as guardians.

I have yet to have a broody Chantecler but as I understand it their broodiness is deferred and they don't go broody in their first year.

I did once have a mottled leghorn (big mama) hatch a single female chick (butter chicken) and they were inseparable throughout their unfortunately short lives. Even when the chick was fully grown they snuggled every night.

 

[Phoenixxx]

There are some respiratory diseases that pose a life time threat to any new birds they are exposed to, even when the bird who was sick is fully recovererd.  So, if you are ever to sell birds, it would be important to let the potential buyer know that you have had a respiratory disease in your flock that killed all of the youngsters.  If I were a potential buyer, I would be appalled to buy one of your birds and find this out after the fact.  I'm not trying to be mean here, but that's why quarantine is such a big deal, and why I won't bring any new birds into my flock except as day olds from hatchery, or as hatching eggs.  There've been a number of folks who have brought in contaminated stock, and had it make their entire flocks sick.  They've had to cull their entire flocks, sanitize their property, wait out the incubation period and then start over from scratch.  And, yes, I understand the survival of the fittest, and how it leads to increased disease resistance in the long term, but we have to be responsible to each other in the short term.

Totally agree with your last sentence, for sure. People here - myself included when I first got started - are totally naive. EVERY time I've brought birds home - including the very first bunch I got - were advertised as "perfectly healthy". Meanwhile, with every bunch there's been SOMETHING come up with them that they brought to my flock, whether it be an illness, worms, mites, something... So, despite having brought home only "perfectly healthy" chickens, I have, in fact, never brought home perfectly healthy birds!

 

[Shan30]

What is everyone's thoughts on disease?

I had something go through my flock about a week ago that caused gurgled/raspy breath and watery/goopy eyes. Everyone survived and recovered except for the week-olds who just weren't big and strong enough to fight it.

I had posted a thread asking for advice etc, and one person told me to either wipe everyone out and start anew or, at the very least, not sell any birds or even hatching eggs!

Now, it seems to me that having my birds be sick and breeding all the healthy, strong ones is a GOOD thing - after all, we WANT disease-resistant birds, yeah? And the fact that they may now be carriers of something does not necessarily mean they will pass it on. I mean, even people are carriers of all kinds of different things, but you don't see 100% of the human population sick with herpes. And even if my birds had been vaccinated since the very beginning, that doesn't guarantee that they can't still catch and pass on whatever they're vaccinated against; it simply means they won't get full-blown symptoms if they do catch whatever.

So, being that we're here about the natural ways of doing things, what do you all think?

I think this is a really difficult topic and many people will have many different opinions.

I personally have been in this situation and do not regret that I culled my entire flock and started over. I do, however, regret buying birds off a well know breeder whose stock had MG.

I would say test them and find out what you are dealing with before you make that decision.

For me, I needed to know what it was. We culled two birds and had them tested. Once we were aware that it was MG we figured we had two options, cull or close out flock.

We were considering the closed flock option until we thought about and researched the ways the MG (and many other diseases) can be spread. On your shoes, clothing, vehicle tires, eggs, by wild birds, on our pets, and believe it or not, inside your nasal cavities.

We both felt that it would be unfair to risk neighbouring farms and wildlife. If all it would take was a small bird landing in the yard or me sneezing in a feed store...well you get the idea.

So we culled over 30 birds (which was awful), disinfected, waited and started over with NPIP certified birds brought up from the US and hatching eggs from stock that we tested ourselves.

 

[lalaland]

There are some respiratory diseases that pose a life time threat to any new birds they are exposed to, even when the bird who was sick is fully recovererd. So, if you are ever to sell birds, it would be important to let the potential buyer know that you have had a respiratory disease in your flock that killed all of the youngsters. If I were a potential buyer, I would be appalled to buy one of your birds and find this out after the fact. I'm not trying to be mean here, but that's why quarantine is such a big deal, and why I won't bring any new birds into my flock except as day olds from hatchery, or as hatching eggs. There've been a number of folks who have brought in contaminated stock, and had it make their entire flocks sick. They've had to cull their entire flocks, sanitize their property, wait out the incubation period and then start over from scratch. And, yes, I understand the survival of the fittest, and how it leads to increased disease resistance in the long term, but we have to be responsible to each other in the short term.

I definitely agree with you.!

Phoenix, if you read through the disease/sick thread, you'll find lots of folks on byc who have lost entire flocks because they brought in a bird that was a carrier, and the seller knew about it. I can't tell from your description, of course, and I'm not an expert, but boy do I think you are playing with fire. If the guy you want to sell yours to knows what happened, that it killed all of the young ones, then he can decide for himself. If he has no other chickens, it might not matter! But, say he gets your birds, and then later passes one on and doesn't warn the new flock owner....

I know of one breeder who lost more than a decade of his work that way - even if you quarantine you wouldn't catch it - the bird they get from you will look healthy, act healthy.....pass quarantine, and unless the person does the double quarantine where after the first few weeks of quarantine you add a sacrificial bird to the quarantine pen and see if that bird survives...you would bring the carrier bird into your flock.

I am just extra cautious of respiratory problems because there are nasty ones out there.

think there is one that gets passed on in the egg too, if I remember right.

 

[Phoenixxx]

I think this is a really difficult topic and many people will have many different opinions.

I personally have been in this situation and do not regret that I culled my entire flock and started over. I do, however, regret buying birds off a well know breeder whose stock had MG.

I would say test them and find out what you are dealing with before you make that decision.

For me, I needed to know what it was. We culled two birds and had them tested. Once we were aware that it was MG we figured we had two options, cull or close out flock.

We were considering the closed flock option until we thought about and researched the ways the MG (and many other diseases) can be spread. On your shoes, clothing, vehicle tires, eggs, by wild birds, on our pets, and believe it or not, inside your nasal cavities.

We both felt that it would be unfair to risk neighbouring farms and wildlife. If all it would take was a small bird landing in the yard or me sneezing in a feed store...well you get the idea.

So we culled over 30 birds (which was awful), disinfected, waited and started over with NPIP certified birds brought up from the US and hatching eggs from stock that we tested ourselves.

What's MG?

And yeah, registered breeder I don't think means very much, other than that they produce show-quality birds. My white phoenixes and the golden came from a guy who bought his original stock from a breeder and, until I brought some of my BA roos to trade, he had never had any outside birds in his place. But a couple dropped dead after bringing them home and until having them, I'd never seen a red poop in my coop: the phoenixes had cocci and had had to have had it straight from the breeder, with the young pullets catching it from their breeder parents who were likely raised on medicated feed.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Quote: Are your Americaunas from a breeder?

 

[Phoenixxx]

I definitely agree with you.!

Phoenix, if  you read through the disease/sick thread, you'll find lots of folks on byc who have lost entire flocks because they brought in a bird that was a carrier, and the seller knew about it.  I can't tell from your description, of course, and I'm not an expert, but boy do I think you are playing with fire.  If the guy you want to sell yours to knows what happened, that it killed all of the young ones, then he can decide for  himself.  If he has no other chickens, it might not matter!  But, say he gets your birds, and then later passes one on and doesn't warn the new flock owner....

I know of one breeder who lost more than a decade of his work that way - even if you quarantine you wouldn't catch it - the bird they get from you will look healthy, act healthy.....pass quarantine,  and unless the person does the double quarantine where after the first few weeks of quarantine you add a sacrificial bird to the quarantine pen and see if that bird survives...you would bring the carrier bird into your flock.

I am just extra cautious of respiratory problems because there are nasty ones out there.

think there is one that gets passed on in the egg too, if I remember right.

They don't have that one, that's for sure. Otherwise the siblings of my 2-week-olds (who are separated - i had a broody and gave her some of the eggs from the incubator to raise and I kept the rest) would also be sick. And, despite having contact with the others through the mesh of their daytime outdoor pen, they're still fine.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Enjoying the respiratory infections discussion.

Here is info on MG:

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou...ion_in_poultry.html?qt=poultry disease&alt=sh

 

[Leahs Mom]

And a quote from the linked info:

Prevention is based largely on obtaining chicks or poults from M gallisepticum–free breeder flocks. Eradication of M gallisepticum from chicken and turkey commercial breeding stock is well advanced in the USA because of control programs coordinated by the National Poultry Improvement Plan. The most effective control program is to establish M gallisepticum–free breeder flocks, managed and maintained under good biosecurity to prevent introductions, and monitored regularly with serology to continually confirm infection-free status. In valuable breeding stock, treatment of eggs with antibiotics or heat has been used to eliminate egg transmission to progeny. Medication is not a good long-term control method but has been of value in treating individual infected flocks.
Laying chickens free of M gallisepticum are desirable, but infection in commercial multiple-age egg farms where depopulation is not feasible is a problem. Inactivated, oil-emulsion bacterins are available and help prevent egg production losses but not infection. Three live vaccines (F-strain, ts-11, and 6/85) have been licensed in the USA for use during the growing phase to provide some protection during lay and may be used in some areas with permission of the state veterinarian. F-strain is of low virulence in chickens but is fully virulent for turkeys. Vaccinated chickens remain carriers of F-strain, and immunity lasts through the laying season. Vaccine strains ts-11 and 6/85 are less virulent, offer the advantage of improved safety for nontarget birds, and are widely used in commercial layers. A commercial recombinant fowlpox–M gallisepticum vaccine has been marketed.