The Old Folks Home

[vehve]

Quote: Yeah, the duck stuff I didn't learn until getting birds, but the mussel thing I already knew from way before.

 

[chickadoodles]

Quote: Dude I had night blindness all my life and Vitamin A does help. When I got cataracts and had them removed I could finally see at night for the first time.

 

[vehve]

Quote: Dude I had night blindness all my life and Vitamin A does help. When I got cataracts and had them removed I could finally see at night for the first time.
Like mommy said, eat your carrots to get good eyesight.

 

[vehve]

The ground is white... Luckily it will melt away soon. Unlike Alaskan's snow, buahahaa.

 

[Amberjem]

The ground is white... Luckily it will melt away soon. Unlike Alaskan's snow, buahahaa.

I was trying to pretend it wasnt snow in the picture lol brrr hey didnt you get the memo winters cancelled this season by majority vote

 

[ChickenCanoe]

These are sort of hard to miss:



Finland is a weird country when it comes to attitudes towards the police. Lately there have been a lot of scandals. The chief for the Helsinki drug police is sitting in jail, being charged for corruption and apparently he has pretty close ties to some drug ring. Also, loads of people have been added to some suspect registry without a proper reason. But still, when people were asked how they feel about the police, over 90% say that they trust the police. To my understanding, that's a pretty high number.

*Edit* That's the Swedish text visible there, "Polis". Ther other side is in Finnish and reads "Poliisi". I'd like to buy an old cop car and paint "Rövare - Rosvo" (Robber) on it.

Yes they are hard to miss.
Most police cars around here are regular cars with some marking and often lights. Now the light bar on top are LED and very thin. They resemble a roof rack from the front.
Do you think you would get attention for that painted vehicle?

I think 90% of Mexicans DON"T trust the police, for good reason. Around here, it's about 50%.

The last time i got an attitude with a cop was in chicago. They pulled us over for no reason. I started smart mouthing off to them during the search of the chevy blazer. They whooped me like a red headed stepchild

Yeah, never a good idea, no matter who you are or even if you're totally innocent. The lumps on the head still hurt.

...
It pays to know the laws. Here in Woodland, a special gang unit shot and killed an hispanic. They were not wearing uniforms and only had badges. It is scary when you realize there are people pretending to be police out there.

There's a good reason for impersonating an officer to be highly illegal everywhere.
At least you can trust 90% of them in most states, counties and cities.

Yep I know ronnot1, I don't have the right birds to breed them. I really like the black sex link I have though, the reds are great too...
Crossed with my EE roo you get a really neat bird though... Buff colour, olive eggs, great layer and a decent broody... That's what marshmallow was.
Should I feed them something different if I want to hatch eggs... Am i nuts or is there a breeder feed?

You can make your own sexlinks. Start with a RIR or New Hampshire cock over a barred rock hen for Black.
Lots more information here.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGP/Sex-links/BRKSexLink.html

You're not nuts. There is a breeder feed but it is hard to find so some people try to conjure up their own. I have access to a feed from Nature's Seasons called Breeder/Layer Crums that is 17% protein so total crude protein isn't really higher but Lysine and Methionine are substantially higher. MInerals like Selenium and Zinc are higher as are vitamins.

Assuming they are already parasite free, a good high protein fee, like a grower or show feed along with free choice calcium. Light is important so check into the correct light color for rooster fertility. I think @ChickenCanoe has posted that before.

Too much calcium is bad for Roosters.

about 0.8% protein is ideal for roosters but they can usually handle up to 2% or so with no ill effects. It's the 4% in layer feed that becomes problematic for the kidneys and fertility.

Dsqard and myself made a productive Sunday on Skype. I am teaching her to quilt and applique.

The irony of making beautiful fall leaves while there's a blizzard going on outside wasn't lost on me.

What a great use for Skype.

yep.... I am thinking that that is the key. I have been trying to follow that route since the spring.... I think it having a better outcome than previous things I have attempted.

ker-duh, YES!

I REALLY like my Brinsea. I have the 40. My house does not have a stable temp to save its life.. (the joys of wood heat), the Brinsea can keep the temp rock solid! This is truly almost miraculous.

I do NOT recommend staggered hatches in only one incubator...... I need a second incubator just for a hatcher.......not sure what I should buy for that.


yes, you are correct, snow is depressing.

Good nutrition for the breeder birds makes a BIG difference in hatchability and just vim and vigor of the newly hatched chicks. Everyone seams to use a different combination of stuff for their breeders, but I would recommend adding something good in addition to regular pellets.

Closets are good for more stable temps. I use programmable thermostats to conserve energy so the house temps can vary by 20 degrees in 24 hours. For that reason, my incubators are in the cellar. It's cold down there but stable. It also keeps me from looking at them all the time.
For a hatcher, I recommend anything that can be sterilized, unlike the Styrofoam type.

So true about breeder nutrition making a huge difference.

What? What spouse????

OH!!!! THAT SPOUSE!

Nope, of course not.

All I can say is - I feel your pain.

...
So boost nutrition but what aspects of nutrition? I suppose I should try harder to provide greens, sprouts would be good...
What else? Protein?

I'm about to spew a dissertation of my take on nutrition. You can take it with a grain of salt. I am a nutrition Nazi when it comes to human nutrition and carry that fervor to animal nutrition.
I'm not a poultry nutritionist but I've been studying avian nutrition and nutrition in general for many years, primarily for chickens but other species as well. I'm working with the company that makes the organic feed I use on adjusting their ingredients.

There is about 100 years of research in poultry nutrition within our grasp. The bulk of research is in service to the broiler and egg industries so most of our birds lead different lives and our management techniques and flock goal are much different. (most of us don't turn over our flocks every 18 months)
That research is done on birds that do not free range nor get "treats". This still makes it very valuable information on a nutrient by nutrient content basis and its direct effect on growth, fertility, etc.. Feed manufacturers, whether they produce for the retail market or are mills owned by meat and egg companies, have in their best interest, providing adequate levels of all nutrients at the lowest cost. They are constantly adjusting their formulas to make use of fluctuating ingredient costs.
Most feeds contain synthetic methionine and lysine to supplement that in short supply in the primary ingredients. Even organic feeds are allowed a small amount of synthetic amino acids.

I'm a big fan of free ranging on good forage but not a big fan of 'treats' unless it is fruits or vegetables when they aren't available as forage. I also advocate meat and fish scraps because they're pretty complete on a basis of amino acids.
The role of many micronutrients in poultry diets have not been studied and therefor aren't included in poultry feeds. Foraging and availability of animal protein can provide some of those thereby, IMHO, improving health.
The main reason I'm not a fan of treats for backyard chickens is that most people IMHO don't have a good handle on how much fat, energy, protein, vitamins, salt and other minerals are in what they're feeding. I believe that feeding table scraps is a great use of an otherwise possibly unused foodstuff, preventing waste. I feed table scraps but I usually have so many birds that each bird is lucky to get a bite. But, if someone has 3 birds and feeds table scraps from a family of 4, the effect on total nutrition can be huge.
Studies show that eggs from truly free range birds are more nutritious and I think, it follows that the meat would be more nutritious as well.

Most recently, I've been studying a couple texts, the 2013 edition of 'Broiler Breeder Production' by S. Leeson and J.D. Summers and 'Biology of Breeding Poultry' from the 29th Poultry Science Symposium of 2007.

I used to be a big fan of protein but have since been schooled on the topic. Excessive protein can be worse than insufficient protein. Important to consider is that an imbalance of amino acids is also detrimental.
Most will acknowledge that free range birds will get wildly fluctuating protein levels from day to day depending on climate, the size and quality of the plot.
High (complete amino acid) crude protein 20+% is great for chicks because their rapidly growing bodies can make use of it. In fact, it's essential - especially for pullets.
For this reason, I don't provide treats of any kind till at least 10 weeks of age but for what they can find while foraging.
One study, (Walsh and Brake, 1997) showed that for pullets fed 12% protein during the rearing period, 22% died as a result of injuries sustained during mating and survivors probably avoided mating.
However, for pullets from 6 weeks to about 16 weeks, 14-16% is sufficient. I do watch for signs of feather picking or cannibalization during growout. 16% is adequate for the lay period. There's a direct correlation between Lysine intake and egg mass up to about 900 mg/day. Above that, the egg size levels off. Egg breeds utilize protein for egg production more efficiently than heavier breeds.
Excess protein is processed by the liver and kidneys and contributes to articular gout.
I do increase protein during and shortly after molt.
Cockerels and roosters on the other hand can be reared on lower protein levels. And somewhat counter intuitive to my mind one trial (Romero-Sanchez et al., 2007) showed that males given 17% crude protein had lower fertility than those given 12% protein. From 45 to 55 weeks of age the fertility was significantly lower (75% compared to 90%).
For a while now, I've been rearing males and females separately. I'm preparing to provide mixed flocks with a hanging feeder high enough that only roosters can access with a lower protein ration.
For incubation, protein as determined by egg size is important. For that reason, it's important not to incubate small pullet eggs. Embryonic development after 14 days is restricted by the limited space and protein content. Egg size has a direct impact on the size of the resultant chick and not necessarily other nutrients in a hen's diet.
A deficiency in hen's diets of virtually any vitamin, or mineral can affect hatchability. Fat soluble vitamins (especially D and E), zinc, manganese and selenium in adequate levels improve both chick quality and health. When one has a poor hatch, they almost never consider breeder flock nutrition and imagine they did something wrong.

If anyone read the rant, sorry for its length.

I think vitamins would be best. Don't go crazy on the protein, I would go for 20% not 16%.

Soooo...... any high power food..... sprouts are awesome, kale, and pumpkins.

Different things I have heard of breeders using:
cat food
fish food (like for Koi)
calf manna

I don't use any of the above....I like nutritional yeast, it has a bunch of good things in it. Of course, some eggs are good too since you get your complete amino acids from them.

Unfortunately, I don't think there are any comparative studies as to what supplements for the breeders are the most helpful.

I DID incubate supplemented verses unsupplemented eggs last year...big difference...but I haven't compared different types of supplementation.

I'm with you on most of that. Vitamin and mineral supplements would be better than any other augmentation and don't go crazy with those either.

There actually are lots of studies for breeder nutrition.

Each primary commercial broiler breeder operation produces a half billion broilers annually. The top 3 states produce over a billion birds annually.
From 1920 to 1990, "Market Weight" of the typical broiler went from 2.2 lbs. to 5.5 lbs.. To reach those weights, the time went from 120 days to 50 days. Weight gain went from 8 grams a day to 50 grams a day. Mortality dropped from 20% to 4%.
Genetic selection and nutrition research are the primary contributors to that improvement.

Equal nutrition research has been done on the egg side of the poultry industry.

Nutritional yeast is cost effect and simple, thanks good idea... Pumpkins and kale I got, perfect. Ok I'm feeding FF mostly, I guess the yeast can go in the dry feed but they choose to eat FF way more... Any thoughts on how to give them the yeast?

I'd add it to the FF.

Ok simple enough... The incubator is on its way! First we have to get rid of this favus infection, then a good worming, some healthy food and I should be all set for a New Year's hatch along...

Do you know they have worms? Having a fecal sample read first would be a good idea.
I read that your birds are molting so it's a double edged sword. Good timing since you won't have egg withdrawal problems but wormers can be hard on a bird stressed from molting.

And a little of the yeast goes a long way... I don't know when we're going to get rid of ours. Karin bought a "small" bag of it, 20 kg... I add about a tablespoonful to their mash every day.

SCG, nice looking maple leaves.

We picked some more rowan berries yesterday. Then we boiled them up together with some apples, and this morning we made a batch of jelly again. We thought we would give some away as Christmas presents.

Beautiful berries.

I was originally told that my two chicks would go through a 5 Kilo bag (11 pounds) of food in 'no time', they are 5 weeks old now and I still have 1/3 of the bag left. They are growing and are happy but I was worried that they may not be eating correctly; although, I never considered that the quality of food would influence how much a chicken eats, until I read your comment, it put that thought to rest. I feed them treats every couple of days, but they are never as excited to eat as when I chuck out the 'dregs' of the feeder bowl after a couple of days and put fresh stuff in (so I know they like the feed). They also get excited when I pull grass from the ground and offer them the white roots! They almost attack my fingers trying to eat them

2 chicks under a month of age will go through almost no food, then the intake picks up but still it's only 2 birds.

This sounds like a wonderful place ! So is there room at the old folks home for a coffee loving, losing my touch, 29 year old (

) ???

I don't know, that's pretty young. Any wrinkles yet?

Let's just say my heart is way older than my mind.

Old at heart is good.

Beautiful maple leaves SCG.

Beautiful jelly vehve.

Just wanted to update on the catfish feed I have been feeding my birds, I had to stop using it. It was causing a circulation problem in the roosters as their combs were turning black and laying over.
I got and now just adding 1 cup of game bird feed to my starter grower that is 18% to boost just a hair to get it up to 20%.

When I stopped feeding the catfish feed the combs on the roosters started looking a lot better pretty quickly.

Read the above comments about protein and roosters.

Why, of course, Chickwhispers, WELCOME!

Now lets see........what is that initiation again? Post a pic of someone famous that you think is hot, post a pic of a representative of your flock, post a pic of your garden (or your dream garden,) and post a pic of your dinner. Is that it? Did I remember that right?

Don't worry, Chickwhispers, just whenever you get around to it, or use old pics, we don't care, it's just a way for us to get to know you better.

We're glad you joined us.

I still haven't posted those themed pics.

 

[vehve]

CC, good post. And it reminds me that I need to mix some new feed for the chickens soon. They do eat the lower protein food out of the feeders to balance out the higher protein food, but my mash needs to go down in protein a lot still. Perhaps I should do it right now.

 

[Amberjem]

I'm about to spew a dissertation of my take on nutrition. You can take it with a grain of salt. I am a nutrition Nazi when it comes to human nutrition and carry that fervor to animal nutrition.
I'm not a poultry nutritionist but I've been studying avian nutrition and nutrition in general for many years, primarily for chickens but other species as well. I'm working with the company that makes the organic feed I use on adjusting their ingredients.

There is about 100 years of research in poultry nutrition within our grasp. The bulk of research is in service to the broiler and egg industries so most of our birds lead different lives and our management techniques and flock goal are much different. (most of us don't turn over our flocks every 18 months)
That research is done on birds that do not free range nor get "treats". This still makes it very valuable information on a nutrient by nutrient content basis and its direct effect on growth, fertility, etc.. Feed manufacturers, whether they produce for the retail market or are mills owned by meat and egg companies, have in their best interest, providing adequate levels of all nutrients at the lowest cost. They are constantly adjusting their formulas to make use of fluctuating ingredient costs.
Most feeds contain synthetic methionine and lysine to supplement that in short supply in the primary ingredients. Even organic feeds are allowed a small amount of synthetic amino acids.

I'm a big fan of free ranging on good forage but not a big fan of 'treats' unless it is fruits or vegetables when they aren't available as forage. I also advocate meat and fish scraps because they're pretty complete on a basis of amino acids.
The role of many micronutrients in poultry diets have not been studied and therefor aren't included in poultry feeds. Foraging and availability of animal protein can provide some of those thereby, IMHO, improving health.
The main reason I'm not a fan of treats for backyard chickens is that most people IMHO don't have a good handle on how much fat, energy, protein, vitamins, salt and other minerals are in what they're feeding. I believe that feeding table scraps is a great use of an otherwise possibly unused foodstuff, preventing waste. I feed table scraps but I usually have so many birds that each bird is lucky to get a bite. But, if someone has 3 birds and feeds table scraps from a family of 4, the affect on total nutrition can be huge.
Studies show that eggs from truly free range birds are more nutritious and I think, it follows that the meat would be more nutritious as well.

Most recently, I've been studying a couple texts, the 2013 edition of 'Broiler Breeder Production' by S. Leeson and J.D. Summers and 'Biology of Breeding Poultry' from the 29th Poultry Science Symposium of 2007.

I used to be a big fan of protein but have since been schooled on the topic. Excessive protein can be worse than insufficient protein. Most important is that an imbalance of amino acids is also detrimental.
Most will acknowledge that free range birds will get wildly fluctuating protein levels from day to day depending on climate and the size an quality of the plot.
High (complete amino acid) crude protein 20+% is great for chicks because their rapidly growing bodies can make use of it. In fact, it's essential - especially for pullets.
For this reason, I don't provide treats of any kind till at least 10 weeks of age but for what they can find while foraging.
One study, (Walsh and Brake, 1997) showed that for pullets fed 12% protein during the rearing period, 22% died as a result of injuries sustained during mating and survivors probably avoided mating.
However, for pullets from 6 weeks to about 16 weeks, 14-16% is sufficient. I do watch for signs of feather picking or cannibalization during growout. 16% is adequate for the lay period. There's a direct correlation between Lysine intake and egg mass up to about 900 mg/day. Above that, the egg size levels off. Egg breeds utilize protein for egg production more efficiently than heavier breeds.
Excess protein is processed by the liver and kidneys and contributes to articular gout.
I do increase protein during and shortly after molt.
Cockerels and roosters on the other hand can be reared on lower protein levels. And somewhat counter intuitive to my mind one trial (Romero-Sanchez et al., 2007) showed that males given 17% crude protein had lower fertility than those given 12% protein. From 45 to 55 weeks of age the fertility was significantly lower (75% compared to 90%).
For a while now, I've been rearing males and females separately. I'm preparing to provide mixed flocks with a hanging feeder high enough that only roosters can access with a lower protein ration.
For incubation, protein as determined by egg size is important. For that reason, it's important not to incubate small pullet eggs. Embryonic development after 14 days is restricted by the limited space and protein content. Egg size has a direct impact on the size of the resultant chick and not necessarily other nutrients in a hen's diet.
A deficiency in hen's diets of virtually any vitamin, or mineral can affect hatchability. Fat soluble vitamins (especially D and E), zinc, manganese and selenium in adequate levels improve both chick quality and health. When one has a poor hatch, they almost never consider breeder flock nutrition and imagine they did something wrong.

If anyone read the rant, sorry for its length.



I'm with you on most of that. Vitamin and mineral supplements would be better than any other augmentation and don't go crazy with those either.

There actually are lots of studies for breeder nutrition.

Each primary commercial broiler breeder operation produces a half billion broilers annually. The top 3 states produce over a billion birds annually.
From 1920 to 1990, "Market Weight" of the typical broiler went from 2.2 lbs. to 5.5 lbs.. To reach those weights, the time went from 120 days to 50 days. Weight gain went from 8 grams a day to 50 grams a day. Mortality dropped from 20% to 4%.
Genetic selection and nutrition research are the primary contributors to that improvement.

Equal nutrition research has been done on the egg side of the poultry industry.

I'd add it to the FF.

nice rant

 

[hennible]

Is it weird that I knew these reproductive facts mentioned here from before? And if you want freaky reproduction, check out the mating ceremony of slugs.

I've seen it. I still think sea slugs are weirder....
It almost the same but with lots of them... And under water.

Dude I had night blindness all my life and Vitamin A does help. When I got cataracts and had them removed I could finally see at night for the first time. 

Yeah vitamin A deficiency is rarely the cause of night blindness in North America... Unless you have some sort of gastrointestinal disorder that doesn't allow you to uptake the vitamin... I was trying to be funny...

CC wow wealth of knowledge. Thanks for the info. No I don't know if they have worms but they have never ever been wormed and my oldest bird is five... My vet clinic doesn't even carry wormers for chickens they have to order them in and they keep forgetting to phone me back.... I could probably get some poop tested but the test would be sent out probably to the Vancouver area and it would cost me an arm and a leg okay not an arm and a leg probably hundred bucks for the test.... Anyway I figured it was safe to assume that the birds have worms.... I also have a few with favus right now and I just want to help them in anyway possible... I figure if they've got worms it's gonna be that much harder on the immune system than just having favus.... Which I am treating with antifungal's.
Wow I was long-winded...

 

[vehve]

Hmm, I think the vet should be able to do a float test if they have a microscope, hennible.