The road less traveled...back to good health! They have lice, mites, scale mites, worms, anemia, gl

[Beekissed]

I have been feeling ill all day and your post made me laugh right out loud. How did your testing go? (Can't help my sense of humor). Thanks. Sue

 

[aoxa]

1. This is where the SOP does mean something, I'm afraid. If you use the normal comb and wattle size for a breed~keep in mind the high bred SOP gals are going to have bigger, better everything than our hatchery gals~as a gauge for what is normal, then you can look at your birds in a whole new light. Here's a pic of a regular, utility type BA from the hatchery:

Her comb and wattle size is about par for the course and it's okay if they are larger but smaller, more pale, less coloring in that face could indicate a bird that has not developed well due to just bad reproductive genetics. In other words, if the only thing that distinguishes her from an immature pullet is her body size, she is either not going to lay or will never lay well. There will always be exceptions to the rule but in my chicken life, I've culled more with the smaller comb/wattles for their breed standard than I have of those with a normal sized development and color.

2. This behavior not only comes from the rooster but the hens as well, when indicating one that is not a layer. I've never seen a hen singled out in that manner that was worth saving. Either they don't socialize well, don't forage well, don't lay well(which always seems to come right along with these other traits) or they are constantly broody and you never really get eggs from this bird because of it. I've also noticed what you have noticed...these are the same birds that also make very poor mothers. It sounds like she also went broody out of season, another thing to watch for. Abnormal hormone function is a big indicator of how sporadic her laying will be in a year's time.

3. If you'll notice the bird in the pic above, she is about normal for what to expect and look for in a working, utility, hatchery BA. She has a broad back that doesn't taper too soon in the tail region. Her tail is not too high. Now, I'm going to use a sexual reference here, so please know that I'm not saying this to shock or offend, but....whenever a woman is on all fours and arches the back, the vaginal walls are drawn tighter the higher the tailbone goes. Now, apply that to the oviduct of a chicken...the higher the tail, the more physical obstruction to large egg development and ease of lay. Look at the three body styles between the hatchery bird above, the SOP girl below and my Black Betty below her.

Unfortunately, I don't think Betty will ever be great shakes as a layer, and though I love that perky tail, for her breed I know it bodes no good when coming to egg size or good reproductive structures.



Compared to:



If you look at the SOP gal, she has a deeper, fuller chest cavity...this means she has more room for all her organs, leaving more room in the rear for larger ovary, ease of egg delivery through the oviduct. The wider hips also provide a better structure. It doesn't always follow that this body structure will have bigger and more eggs, but it's a good indicator...they are built better for it in all ways and her genetics has prepared this girl to be a producer.

The hatchery gal up top has a passable chest but a tad less deep and full than the SOP. Betty has a very flat lower chest. See? A full breast in a chicken isn't all about the meat...there's always a reason for these body structures.

Look at the chest and length of back on Ruby...one of her few good features:




Now look at what that meant in the length of her body cavity...let it be known that, when she was laying, Ruby laid a very large egg. But..her egg structures went too far in the opposite direction..she had an over bite, if you will, on her vent. She laid large eggs but was having trouble keeping the feces from leaking from her anus all the time, creating a place for bacteria to grow. It also prevented her from being bred properly and increased the chances of bacterial infection in her reproductive tract/eggs/chicks. As indicated by her being the only bird that didn't recover promptly from the gleet infection.

Structures and body types always mean something and this is why when you hear a breeder talking about back line, chest, tail set, etc. it is all relative to their ability to produce eggs, be more fertile, have a muscle length and development~if that is their trait~ etc.




Now, all that I've said needs to be taken as coming from someone who is not a breeder but can only tell you what I've noticed or conclusions I have made over the years by dealing with this breed and similar breeds. There are always, always exceptions to the general rules...always. Those exceptions don't need to be culled but you won't want to breed them...they won't also produce little exceptions, IME.

Other things to look for in a BA? Docile and sweet, thrifty on feed, excellent laying of large pale brown/tan eggs, broodiness is good but rare in the breed lines from hatcheries, fierce broodies, good mothering, good feathering with a green sheen, moderately meaty build but not as large as a WR. Great foragers, longevity of laying...the usual. They are the longest and most consistent layers I've had from all the DP breeds I've known and still producing better than most other hatchery birds clear up into 7 yrs and beyond.

I would have culled her just for the creepy alien eyes...

I like this post Bee. There is a lot of good in the S.O.P. There is a reason squirrel tail and wry tail are DQs.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Nope..they would get stuck. The adult ones are green. This one is way too small and they would sling it all over the place.

So they're color coded? I saw a green one at the store the other day. I didn't realize it was different in size than the yellow...that particular store didn't have a yellow one!

 

[Leahs Mom]

Now THAT is a helpful post. good photos to illustrate what you're describing. Just all around helpful.

I know they're going to tackle that on the OT thread after Christmas (note: politically incorrect word just used

) but could you maybe do what you just did on the BA for BRs and RIRs here for us as a little preview?

1. This is where the SOP does mean something, I'm afraid. If you use the normal comb and wattle size for a breed~keep in mind the high bred SOP gals are going to have bigger, better everything than our hatchery gals~as a gauge for what is normal, then you can look at your birds in a whole new light. Here's a pic of a regular, utility type BA from the hatchery:

Her comb and wattle size is about par for the course and it's okay if they are larger but smaller, more pale, less coloring in that face could indicate a bird that has not developed well due to just bad reproductive genetics. In other words, if the only thing that distinguishes her from an immature pullet is her body size, she is either not going to lay or will never lay well. There will always be exceptions to the rule but in my chicken life, I've culled more with the smaller comb/wattles for their breed standard than I have of those with a normal sized development and color.

2. This behavior not only comes from the rooster but the hens as well, when indicating one that is not a layer. I've never seen a hen singled out in that manner that was worth saving. Either they don't socialize well, don't forage well, don't lay well(which always seems to come right along with these other traits) or they are constantly broody and you never really get eggs from this bird because of it. I've also noticed what you have noticed...these are the same birds that also make very poor mothers. It sounds like she also went broody out of season, another thing to watch for. Abnormal hormone function is a big indicator of how sporadic her laying will be in a year's time.

3. If you'll notice the bird in the pic above, she is about normal for what to expect and look for in a working, utility, hatchery BA. She has a broad back that doesn't taper too soon in the tail region. Her tail is not too high. Now, I'm going to use a sexual reference here, so please know that I'm not saying this to shock or offend, but....whenever a woman is on all fours and arches the back, the vaginal walls are drawn tighter the higher the tailbone goes. Now, apply that to the oviduct of a chicken...the higher the tail, the more physical obstruction to large egg development and ease of lay. Look at the three body styles between the hatchery bird above, the SOP girl below and my Black Betty below her.

Unfortunately, I don't think Betty will ever be great shakes as a layer, and though I love that perky tail, for her breed I know it bodes no good when coming to egg size or good reproductive structures.



Compared to:



If you look at the SOP gal, she has a deeper, fuller chest cavity...this means she has more room for all her organs, leaving more room in the rear for larger ovary, ease of egg delivery through the oviduct. The wider hips also provide a better structure. It doesn't always follow that this body structure will have bigger and more eggs, but it's a good indicator...they are built better for it in all ways and her genetics has prepared this girl to be a producer.

The hatchery gal up top has a passable chest but a tad less deep and full than the SOP. Betty has a very flat lower chest. See? A full breast in a chicken isn't all about the meat...there's always a reason for these body structures.

Look at the chest and length of back on Ruby...one of her few good features:




Now look at what that meant in the length of her body cavity...let it be known that, when she was laying, Ruby laid a very large egg. But..her egg structures went too far in the opposite direction..she had an over bite, if you will, on her vent. She laid large eggs but was having trouble keeping the feces from leaking from her anus all the time, creating a place for bacteria to grow. It also prevented her from being bred properly and increased the chances of bacterial infection in her reproductive tract/eggs/chicks. As indicated by her being the only bird that didn't recover promptly from the gleet infection.

Structures and body types always mean something and this is why when you hear a breeder talking about back line, chest, tail set, etc. it is all relative to their ability to produce eggs, be more fertile, have a muscle length and development~if that is their trait~ etc.




Now, all that I've said needs to be taken as coming from someone who is not a breeder but can only tell you what I've noticed or conclusions I have made over the years by dealing with this breed and similar breeds. There are always, always exceptions to the general rules...always. Those exceptions don't need to be culled but you won't want to breed them...they won't also produce little exceptions, IME.

Other things to look for in a BA? Docile and sweet, thrifty on feed, excellent laying of large pale brown/tan eggs, broodiness is good but rare in the breed lines from hatcheries, fierce broodies, good mothering, good feathering with a green sheen, moderately meaty build but not as large as a WR. Great foragers, longevity of laying...the usual. They are the longest and most consistent layers I've had from all the DP breeds I've known and still producing better than most other hatchery birds clear up into 7 yrs and beyond.

 

[aoxa]

Bee,

have you ever considered Chantecler as a breed worth raising?

 

[lalaland]

those are gorgeous birds. Has anyone else heard about their mousing abilities? I've had hens in the past who were good mousers, not so sure about my current bunch.

Bunch of chickens, anyway, I wasn't there to shoo them out yesterday and despite bright sunshine and hay spread on the ground, they stayed in the coop all day long!

 

[aaggjg]

I can agree with that assessment. Silkie chicks forced to stay with the flock as chicks with a DP mama would probably continue that flocking instinct. Flocking instinct is the key to good foraging and pasturing of many livestock. Those who stay with the flock are less likely to be preyed upon and they also consume more on foraging with the rest of the flock due to food competition instincts.

I have 2 different coops of chickens so that they have enough outside run space as they are cooped up most of the time..... One pen has 1 silkie and she goes out with her coop to forage. She sometimes lags a little behind but usually keeps with her flock. The other coop I have 6 silkies - 4 of them have always gone out of the coop to free range but the 2 whites would just stay in the run no matter what. I had put them out with the girls to play in the yard before but if left to their own devices even if the run door was open they would just stay put.... 1 of the 4 always runs with the other chickens no matter where they go and the others sometimes follow but usually the other silkies like to walk to the back side of the coop and play in the bushes behind it

....

Well, we finally had a bunch of rain last week and I had to put a tarp on the run to protect the silkies .... when the rain stopped water was pooled on the tarp, the birds were out running around so I decided to shake off the water. Well it scared the 2 white silkies out of the run!!! They didn't really want to go back in ..... now everyday they are waiting to come out and play!!! They don't just walk around the coop and stay in the one little area either they are climbing the hill and looking for good snacks! I would have never expected this from those 2 .... but see you can teach a silkie new tricks!!

 

[aoxa]

I have 2 different coops of chickens so that they have enough outside run space as they are cooped up most of the time..... One pen has 1 silkie and she goes out with her coop to forage. She sometimes lags a little behind but usually keeps with her flock. The other coop I have 6 silkies - 4 of them have always gone out of the coop to free range but the 2 whites would just stay in the run no matter what. I had put them out with the girls to play in the yard before but if left to their own devices even if the run door was open they would just stay put.... 1 of the 4 always runs with the other chickens no matter where they go and the others sometimes follow but usually the other silkies like to walk to the back side of the coop and play in the bushes behind it

....

Well, we finally had a bunch of rain last week and I had to put a tarp on the run to protect the silkies .... when the rain stopped water was pooled on the tarp, the birds were out running around so I decided to shake off the water. Well it scared the 2 white silkies out of the run!!! They didn't really want to go back in ..... now everyday they are waiting to come out and play!!! They don't just walk around the coop and stay in the one little area either they are climbing the hill and looking for good snacks! I would have never expected this from those 2 .... but see you can teach a silkie new tricks!!

Scare them into free ranging, well I never!

 

[Beekissed]

Bee,

have you ever considered Chantecler as a breed worth raising?

You know? I like their looks and size but when I read about their laying, it always comes up "very good" or 4 eggs per wk. A four egg per week gal is a cull in my flocks unless she is really ancient. I may change my mind on all that when I start culling for free ranging only birds...those that produce on free range, spring through fall. Can't expect high laying on that kind of life but I'm sure going to start with high and adjust my expectations down as I go along.

 

[Rachel'sFlock]

Other things to look for in a BA? Docile and sweet, thrifty on feed, excellent laying of large pale brown/tan eggs, broodiness is good but rare in the breed lines from hatcheries, fierce broodies, good mothering, good feathering with a green sheen, moderately meaty build but not as large as a WR. Great foragers, longevity of laying...the usual. They are the longest and most consistent layers I've had from all the DP breeds I've known and still producing better than most other hatchery birds clear up into 7 yrs and beyond.

Thank you, so much, Bee!
I appreciate you taking the time to outline all these traits, and to provide pictures. I do have some hens who look very much like Utility Bird #1. I have none which look like Little Miss Perfect Australian Aussie! I am starting to understand the concept of the shape of body in relation to reproductive organs.

Penelope, my little misfit, wasn't the broody hen, she was the brooded chick.
Her Broody Mum died when she was 5 weeks old, down to predation. I honestly believe, given her personality, she is the offspring of my nastiest hen, Mathilda, who happens to be my only broody hen (not broody, now, but finished off Mothering her brood when they were 10 weeks old. She is a sort of B, and was going to be first to the cull, but then went broody this summer, and got a reprieve). I am going to keep Tilda, but not to breed. Just to set. She is a good layer in the season.

Pen has to go, when I do the boys. I concur entirely that they rest of the flock wouldn't hate her so much if there wasn't something wrong with her. She is also the loner at forage time (lucky she hasn't been eaten by any of the predators who hang out in this forest/clearing, yet!). Oddly, my Max the roo seems to like her fine

.
But his opinion is just one factor in a long list of variables.
I am tired of feeding people who aren't part of the Big Picture.

I will likely never have big gorgeous pure Aussie-style BAs, but I would like the healthiest, most productive, carefree flock possible.
Thanks again for your insight.
Can you imagine me having this conversation with Al, Fred or Walt??? Please tell me which of my hatchery hens are worth breeding? Um, none.
I am seeking a proper breeder, so I can infuse some good blood into my flock. But, one must start where they are, I always say!
thanks again!