The Welsummer Thread!!!!

[newmanmichael]

How much do welsummer cockerels weigh

SOP says cockerels weigh 6 pounds and Cocks weigh 7 pounds. I believe a rooster is considered a cockerel until 1 years old, someone correct me on that if I'm wrong please.

 

[faykokoWV]

I am excited. I myself don't breed the SOP in my breeds (on purpose) - I like utility birds. So I am always stress that utility comes first for my birds and as such they may not make great show birds.

There seems to be another german line that made it's way into the us (via Canada), From what I gather this is a more recent import.

The nice thing about these hens, I guess they started to lay earlier than expected. Bad thing - Small eggs. And I am really facing a dilemma - Do I keep this line of Welsummers the size they are now for egg production, and increase size of egg or do I increase their size and lose egg production (because egg production and egg size are inversely affected by hen size).

Humm lots to chew on. I am guessing that I should hatch some chicks when I get the birds here (I am getting 6 pullets and cockerel) and I won't feel comfortable just waiting to the spring to hatch them.... Maybe I can seek permission from the parents.... After all I just had two light sussex hen's come off the nests with 5 chicks (can you tell they lay in the winter!)

Ideally a bird should both meet the SOP an maintain utility as well - for breeds like the Welsummer where egg color is part of the trademark of the breed I think this is especially important - just my opinion - one theory that is interesting though is that darker egg color results in decreased egg production in general because the eggs are darker because they pass through the system slower...

how old are your hens - if they are young - the size of the egg may increase after the first molt

 

[call ducks]

Quote:
But here is my way of thinking ( Utility breeders line of thinking)... In my view SOP's were created to fill people's need for need to say "here look at this bird I bred". Farmers way back in the day did not have this need self-filament they just wanted a productive bird. So in my view production trumps a SOP. Now this does not mean I don't select for proper breed traits- But If I have a hen that's laying 250 eggs a year she's going in the breeding pen.

When you talk to some of the serious poultrymen that created commercial poultry crosses, An extreme amount can be learned and most of this can be applied to heritage birds. We have breeds losing production fast because very few people know how to select for egg laying now.

The SOP causes breeders to only select for superficial selection - Sure if you could knit feathers in to mittens than maybe there would be a reason. Again this is just my view - I am more or less from a farm.I need these birds to produce. My light sussex - I breed for production first - They still end up placing in shows but I don't breed them for show...

While the size of the egg will increase after a hen molts that's not what I am going for. Egg size differs, by diet, age of hen, etc. So selecting for larger eggs by hatching large eggs will only produce more hens that may lay small eggs.

Anyways I am back to - Losing egg production, and increasing the size of the body, or leaving the body size as is and having a smaller bird, that is a proficient layer.

 

[newmanmichael]

I'm with you - I do agree that the SOP and Poultry shows can cause the breeder to be short sighted and breed for only "pretty" and not breed for production (meat and eggs) but on the flip side it doesn't need to be totally disregarded either. I think we have a find a happy balance between the two. I'd love to win some shows but I don't want birds who just eat my money and don't produce anything back!! But some birds just aren't good for meat or eggs (efficient food converters), they are just pretty.

 

[newmanmichael]

Here's some great videos I found on YouTube about raising Heritage Poultry

 

[faykokoWV]

I suppose there would come a point if you aren't worried about the SOP at all, and only interested in utility, then the question would have to be asked - why get a specific breed of chicken at all?

I'm saying that in a joking way - I understand what you mean by breeding for utility - I'm truly just playing devils advocate here.

 

[Weirdness555]

You get them for a starting point I suppose. Or because they look pretty

 

[call ducks]

I suppose there would come a point if you aren't worried about the SOP at all, and only interested in utility, then the question would have to be asked - why get a specific breed of chicken at all?

I'm saying that in a joking way - I understand what you mean by breeding for utility - I'm truly just playing devils advocate here.

Haha You are.

But why get a breed that's been bred for utility? Egg laying factors, generally you are getting the of the best. When I first got my Light Sussex, my mentor sent me five of her best birds from the previous breeding season. She raises ~750/year. Not saying everyone does. For the first two generations I will be rasing at least 200 welsummers/year - Again more of a farm then a hobby. You also want the traits that come with it, such as for sussex winter egg laying, or welsummer those dark eggs. Now I don't disregard the SOP completely but again production will trump SOP at least until I get a good producing bird.

I have thought about ways to maximize hybrid vigour in purebreds without frequently adding new lines. There are two ways the growing a large number of birds, and taking the concept of 4 way crosses and applying it to heritage birds (the latter I am not sure would be beneficial for sure as I have not tried it). But then there's older-new ways of breeding poultry such as spiral breeding, and other forms of line breeding. Which I don't like as much as they are not really tested fully. The thing about population breeding is it's one of the oldest and earliest breeding forms - So I know it works.

Why do I always of track? LOL

 

[newmanmichael]

Haha You are.

But why get a breed that's been bred for utility? Egg laying factors, generally you are getting the of the best. When I first got my Light Sussex, my mentor sent me five of her best birds from the previous breeding season. She raises ~750/year. Not saying everyone does. For the first two generations I will be rasing at least 200 welsummers/year - Again more of a farm then a hobby. You also want the traits that come with it, such as for sussex winter egg laying, or welsummer those dark eggs. Now I don't disregard the SOP completely but again production will trump SOP at least until I get a good producing bird.

I have thought about ways to maximize hybrid vigour in purebreds without frequently adding new lines. There are two ways the growing a large number of birds, and taking the concept of 4 way crosses and applying it to heritage birds (the latter I am not sure would be beneficial for sure as I have not tried it). But then there's older-new ways of breeding poultry such as spiral breeding, and other forms of line breeding. Which I don't like as much as they are not really tested fully. The thing about population breeding is it's one of the oldest and earliest breeding forms - So I know it works.

Why do I always of track? LOL

But aren't there some traits you'll lose if you don't breed for them, like the yellow legs? I'm not very versed in the genetics department but from my understanding yellow legs aren't the dominant trait so it would be easy to lose if you don't specifically breed for it in your line? Again, I'm all about a bird being productive but when does a Welsummer stop being a Welsummer? Something I've been recently learning about is the German New Hampshires which has a fascinating story: http://sunbirdfarms.com/german-new-hampshires/

 

[call ducks]

Quote:
It really really depends. I know very little genetically speaking about leg colour. I feel that by selecting for production you will not lose shape according to the SOP... That is unless it was written wrong.