The Welsummer Thread!!!!

[McSpin]

i'm always curious why people are so interested in what lines the chicks are coming from - - unless the chicks are directly from that line source, imo, it doesn't matter. the current breeder is making their own decisions and doing their own thing - - thus, i am interested, in what they themselves are doing. i also would think that some of the "line sources" may not like their name being thrown around. what if they don't like what the current breeder is doing? what if they don't represent their line? i guess, to me, a more relevant question is: what are you, the current breeder, doing? i'd like to see that - the results you are getting. you are the line source.

Personally, I want to know where the line came from. It can be very important sometimes. In some instances, I know that certain lines are not what I'm looking for. Also, when I'm trying to obtain additional birds from the same line as mine, how do I know if the breeder doesn't let me know? Linebreeding and outcrossing are important techniques for any knowledgeable breeder and you have to know what the line is to even consider it. If the person who's name it is you are using doesn't like it - too bad. As long as you are being honest it's none of their business if you tell people where you obtained your line. Of course, it is important what you have done with the line since you've obtained it and those are more good questions to be asked. Hiding the fact of where you obtained the line serves no useful purpose.

 

[blueberrychickens]

can anyone recommend a wellie breeder I can get eggs from? I'm in Mass & will travel, thanks!

 

[Happy Chooks]

can anyone recommend a wellie breeder I can get eggs from? I'm in Mass & will travel, thanks!

Several breeders here ship eggs - but you can also check the WCNA site:
http://wcna.webs.com/breederslist.htm

 

[blueberrychickens]

Thanks!! I am hoping to get an incubator soon & I'll be filling it w/ some Wellie eggs for sure!!

 

[eggdd]

Personally, I want to know where the line came from. It can be very important sometimes. In some instances, I know that certain lines are not what I'm looking for. Also, when I'm trying to obtain additional birds from the same line as mine, how do I know if the breeder doesn't let me know? Linebreeding and outcrossing are important techniques for any knowledgeable breeder and you have to know what the line is to even consider it. If the person who's name it is you are using doesn't like it - too bad. As long as you are being honest it's none of their business if you tell people where you obtained your line. Of course, it is important what you have done with the line since you've obtained it and those are more good questions to be asked. Hiding the fact of where you obtained the line serves no useful purpose.

what are you doing, mcspin? do you have pictures of your breedings? do you aspire to recreate another breeders idea of the standard, or do you have your own ideas (i hope this is taken in the spirit it's intended. it's a sincere, non judgemental question. just curious about your goals)? i'd like to see some of your welsummers.

 

[tazcat70]

On line information.....

I am a no body when it comes to Welsummers. I like them, and I want good stock. I am not so worried about where they came from as who has them now and how serious they are about them. Yes, if you start with good stock it takes more time to ruin them, but I want the people I get them from to care about what the birds look like, take into consideration the egg color and have goals of what they want from their birds and to cull, not just use everything.

Just my .02.

 

[eggdd]

is there like a champion welsummer? do all breeds have their own respective best of the best yearly? i'd like to see a picture of the "perfect" wellsummer (obviously in the context of showing and breed standard).

 

[Tailfeathers]

Originally Posted by eggdd
i'm always curious why people are so interested in what lines the chicks are coming from - - unless the chicks are directly from that line source, imo, it doesn't matter. the current breeder is making their own decisions and doing their own thing - - thus, i am interested, in what they themselves are doing. i also would think that some of the "line sources" may not like their name being thrown around. what if they don't like what the current breeder is doing? what if they don't represent their line? i guess, to me, a more relevant question is: what are you, the current breeder, doing? i'd like to see that - the results you are getting. you are the line source.


Exactly. I've been saying that same thing on here for years. Also, I think once again folks are getting the "strain" confused with the "line".

I totally agree with what you are saying. But for those just learning about Welsummers it would be nice to see examples of particular lines. If anyone has "original" birds, or photos of original birds from "original" lines please post them and explain why these lines are different and what the breeders goal was. How were the birds phenotypically different from other lines. What did the original lines focus on. Why were they different?

I also agree that it would be educational to see what folks are doing with their own breeding programs. What do they want to attain both genotypically and phenotypically. What is their "ideal" end result. What do your birds/your lines look like. What is the breeders ideal bird.

I have been going through some old posts to try to learn about the breed. I have come to the conclusion that some of the strains do have a different look to them. It would be great to see representations of the these particular lines. Representations of a current breeders program as well as representations of what "original" stock looked like from these different lines. It would be nice to see a "show and tell" of original stock and "current lines" as well.
All this is GREAT education. At least it is in my eyes. I

From what I've seen I don't think you're going to find any "lines" out there where one is going to be able to easily distinguish that line from another. It takes years and years of line-breeding to create a specific line where one can look at a bird and say, "Oh, that's definitely so-and-so's bird."

As for "phenotype" differences, they are going to have to be by necessity minor because the SOP simply does not allow for much variation in the breed. The primary traits allowing for such probably being hackle color. As for "genotype", most of that is over my head but from what I do understand, again, I doubt you'll find any variation at all. A Welsummer is a Welsummer at this point.

I'd like to hear your observations as to what different looks the various strains you've seen have. Some folks certainly have a keener eye to specific details that I do.

Finally, I will tell you that it is my goal to develop my own "strain" from the line I currently have. There are some very specific traits that I hope to be able to "set" in the next 3-5 years. Once these are accomplished I will have eradicated any deviation from those traits in the gene pool and every mating that I make should produce the same results. I believe these two traits alone will set my birds apart from most, if not all, the other Welsummers and I hope to achieve the results where folks can see my birds and state, "Those are from Tailfeathers." Whether I can get it done in the next 3-5 years is yet to be seen. I'll know better in 2 years.

Personally, I want to know where the line came from. It can be very important sometimes. In some instances, I know that certain lines are not what I'm looking for. Also, when I'm trying to obtain additional birds from the same line as mine, how do I know if the breeder doesn't let me know? Linebreeding and outcrossing are important techniques for any knowledgeable breeder and you have to know what the line is to even consider it. If the person who's name it is you are using doesn't like it - too bad. As long as you are being honest it's none of their business if you tell people where you obtained your line. Of course, it is important what you have done with the line since you've obtained it and those are more good questions to be asked. Hiding the fact of where you obtained the line serves no useful purpose.

I would agree with you Steve IF one is out searching for something very specific. But again, as I've written extensively on in the past, there is way too much emphasis being given on "whose line is this" when the Questioner really doesn't even know what they're asking. I don't have the time nor the inclination to repeat all I've written in the past so suffice it for now to say that most people are advertising that they have a certain person's line by name when in fact they are selling no such thing as they are the one who has been breeding the birds for the past several years or, as is more often the case, they obtained a certain "line" from somebody who got their birds from somebody who got their birds from somebody that said they had said person's "line". Any serious breeder knows that a lot of damage can be done to a "line" in just the first year alone - let alone two or three!

As for how do you obtain birds from the same line as yours if the breeder doesn't tell you, I'd say you just got your answer. Moreover, even if the person states they have the same "line" as you, I would say that is highly doubtful and at any case you are simply taking their word for it unless they have some documentation to back that up - which again is highly doubtful.

I would agree that linebreeding is an important technique but would disagree that outcrossing is. In fact, I highly recommend anyone NOT outcross as a practice. There are very few specific exceptions where outcrossing may be NECESSARY but they are rare. But even in those cases where it may be necessary to bring someone else's birds into your flock, there are far more important things to consider than just "whose line is it"? If I were to do such a thing, I would be asking a plethora of questions regarding their breeding history and plans than I would be "whose line is it". Again, I think the appropriate word to be used here would be "strain".

If one is really serious about a breed, I would recommend finding a top breeder in that breed/variety and then taking the time to build a relationship with that person. Find out what their goals are for the breed. What does their breeding plan consist of? Work with them and ask them to mentor you. Then, if the NEED arises to outcross, you can go back to them and you're gonna be as safe as one can be.

I also can't agree with the statement that it's "none of their business" if "the person's name your using doesn't like it". I happen to have seen folks who are throwing around certain well-known breeder's name in order to charge ridiculous prices for their birds and eggs. In a couple of those cases, the birds and/or eggs were not even good representations of the breed/variety. While I certainly agree and encourage a "Caveat Emptor" mindset, if I were someone who had spent years of dedicated time, effort, energy, and expense to create a nationally recognized top quality breed/variety and then some fool is using my name and throwing it around like candy just to make a buck, I'd probably be none too happy.

I'd have to give it some more thought as to whether hiding the fact of where you obtained your "line" (probably "strain") serves any useful purpose or not but without thinking about it more, I'd be inclined to agree with that.

And now I must go wade thru the snow and make my rounds. At least it warmed up enough that I shouldn't have to truck any water tonight.

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

is there like a champion welsummer? do all breeds have their own respective best of the best yearly? i'd like to see a picture of the "perfect" wellsummer (obviously in the context of showing and breed standard).

There are many "Champion Welsummers". I have had a couple - BUT those were "champions" of local shows. Both BB and Champion Continental's.

I don't know if anyone had any Welsummer's at the National this year. Does anyone else? As for the Club, as far as I know, we haven't had any regional or national events.

And you won't find a "perfect' Welsummer. We all try to get there but we do so knowing it will never happen.

God Bless,

 

[eggdd]

Quote:

yep.

re: champion welsummers. the north american club has no pictures of the standard they promote (that i found). the uk club has photos, but not very helpful if you're looking for the american standard of perfection. as i have said, i'm confused about proper color. there seems to be a tolerated variance and was curious what a welsummer who'd won some recognition would look like. if it's just about personal preference, i prefer lighter wellies (both roo and hen). to me, they look more old world, or classic.