The Welsummer Thread!!!!

Let me explain what linebreeding is and outcrossing. Inbreeding is breeding closing related birds, ie. siblings, mother/son, father/daughter. Linebreeding is a more controlled form of inbreeding. In linebreeding, you set up groups of closely related birds and keep them separate from other groups and have a specific program for crossing the inbred groups into each other. For instance, you set up four lines of birds systematically cross them into the other lines. After two generations of breeding the best to the best in each line, you take the best rooster from line 1 and cross it with the best hens from line 2. The best rooster in line 2 with the best hens in line 3, and so on. There are dozens of variations on this technique, but this is a basic overview of linebreeding. Most backyard breeders practice inbreeding only and outcrossing.

Outcrossing does not mean to a non-welsummer. It means breeding to birds out of your lines. When dealing with genetics, you cannot produce a trait in your birds if your line does not have that trait - short of having a mutation. You need to add those genes to your line and you do that by outcrossing. For instance, if you have a great line of show birds that only produce lighter eggs and you want to have the darker eggs, you can hope for a mutation and take the forever-route of making your own, or you can outcross to a different line whose birds contain this trait. Then, systematically line breed this trait into your birds.

As far as this being useful, well it's only useful information to those who understand it. If I happen to know that Joe Smith's line of birds are notorious for light colored eggs, but that Joe Blows line is noted for dark eggs, then why would I even considered Smith's line? I want to know the line, before I waste my time asking the other pertinent questions.


Steve, I don't believe your definition is quite correct. Granted there are variations of Linebreeding but those variations usually come in the form of Stud Mating or such.

"Inbreeding" is most often referred to as Brother to Sister matings. However, I suppose if one were to repeatedly do a Mother to Son or Father to Daughter, that would also be considered Inbreeding though I've never read where that was done. "Linebreeding" is when you mate Father to Daughter, then Grandfather to Granddaughter, Great Grandfather to Great Grandaughter and so forth. Or Mother to son to grandson, etc.

Your example above appears to be more of a modified flock mating or group mating. There doesn't appear to be any direct line that one would follow. And, in fact, it would be a form of "outcrossing" because by your own example you are going "outside" of Line 1 by crossing with Line 2, 3, etc.

"Outcrossing" is done anytime one goes outside of their line. This could be outside to another line within their own flock or completely outside their flock. I should have stipulated in my previous post that I do NOT recommend "outcrossing" by going outside your flock and bringing in blood from another breeder. To do so opens the proverbial Pandora's Box and you simply can't help but bring in a host of unknowns. Steve's example about outcrossing to get darker eggs is correct but the breeder MUST understand that along with bringing in dark egg genes, they are likely bringing in a host of other genes that may just as well set back the whole family. For example, what if one orders some hatching eggs and receives a dozen REALLY dark eggs? The recipient will likely be thrilled with the anticipation of finally getting some Wellies that lay really dark eggs. But what if those eggs also contain genes for stubs or white feathers or a host of any other undesirables?

"Cross breeding" on the other hand is done when one crosses a particular breed with a totally different breed or a variety that is not compatible. With the Welsummer there is little reason to do this outside of simply experimentation.

As for the "Joe Smith" and "Joe Blow" examples, I would again emphasize that it is more likely the "strain" that one should be concerned with - not the "line". And, while granted, if one knows that a certain person's birds routinely result in a poor characteristic, then it is likely that person is not much of a reputable breeder for that breed in the first place. And secondly, just because one gets eggs from "Joe Blow" who is "known" for having dark eggs, doesn't mean that's what you are going to wind up with! What if Joe Blow "outcrossed" and got a rooster from Joe Smith and you didn't bother asking that "pertinent question"? What if Joe Blow's best stud rooster died and he's now using a back up that hasn't been color tested yet or he's using a rooster that he knows came from hens who routinely lay light-colored eggs but he keeps those hens just for his egg customers? That's why I maintain that the "pertinent questions" are for more important than "whose line is this"?

I wish I could say that if one were to obtain Welsummers, they are in all likelihood getting pure Welsummers. However, one only has to go back thru this thread to find that may not be the case. But, for the sake of example, let's say that one has started off with pure Welsummers and good starter birds so they start with a foundational flock. (Even then, one may need to take 3-5 years to build a good foundational flock.) With that being the case, I would recommend having two separate lines. For the sake of example, let's call them A & B.

Within each line, the breeder can set one or two traits that he or she wishes to work on. Then I would recommend breeding within each line. In other words, A to A and B to B by the process of "linebreeding" as I described above. If the need arises to bring in "hybrid vigor", one can then "outcross" A to B and start a new C line. This is called maintaining a "Closed Flock".

This is the approach I've taken. I learned this by reading the articles in the Poultry Press by Kenny Troiano and I highly recommend them. Kenny has written a book and some may wish to get that as well. In the Poultry Press articles Kenny has written (which are actually excerpts taken from his book), he has outlined all the basic types of breeding plans and has given the pro's and con's for each. According to Kenny, using the process I described above, he has bred his birds for over 20 years and has NEVER had to bring in any outside blood.

For dummies like me who don't have a degree in genetics, it pays to keep it simple. By maintaining a closed flock and practicing the linebreeding method above, one by necessity limits the available genes that can be used. Ergo, one takes away over time the probability of variation and unknowns.

God Bless,
 
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Hello I am a newbie and have been reading this thread for the past couple of weeks and just joined BYC and WCNA. I have been mostly interested in the bloodline discussion, because I have just built me a homemade incubator and half finished my coop and plan on raising Welsummers.

I am not taking sides nor am I an expert just like researching things and have a web site that I found that may be a good reference to what "Tailfeathes" is talking about please look it over and tell me if it is correct.

http://ultimatefowl.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/line-breeding/
 
Hello I am a newbie and have been reading this thread for the past couple of weeks and just joined BYC and WCNA. I have been mostly interested in the bloodline discussion, because I have just built me a homemade incubator and half finished my coop and plan on raising Welsummers.

I am not taking sides nor am I an expert just like researching things and have a web site that I found that may be a good reference to what "Tailfeathes" is talking about please look it over and tell me if it is correct.

http://ultimatefowl.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/line-breeding/

Yes, but it also kinda covers what Steve is talking about too, only in the article it is calling it "Clan-Matings Breeding," "Rolling-Matings," or "Yard Breeding."

Which is just an more diverse form of what Royce was saying about "Line Breeding."

In my opinion they are the same thing. Here is why.

You are still creating your own line. Lets say you start with really good eggs. You get 2 trios. So they are all basically related to begin with.

Trio 1 (Pen 1)
Hatch eggs
Pullets stay in Pen 1
Roosters grow out and the best (if better than existing roo) is the new roo in trio 2

Trio 2 (Pen 2)
Hatch eggs
Pullets stay in Pen 2
Roosters grow out and the best (if better than existing roo) is the new roo in trio 1

If you want to add another pen then you would take birds from the above matings. You are still breeding family. Just adding a little more genetic diversity in the family. Kissing cousins instead of brothers and sisters. Even though the cousins could be double cousins. (2 sets of aunts and uncles breeding)

Clear as mud? If so, my work here is done.


ETA:

I found this when looking for something else. Another name is "Spiral Breeding." http://www.pathfindersfarm.com/Spiral.html
 
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Many years ago when I was studying genetics the question was raised about the difference between "line-breeding" and "in-breeding". The professor said the main difference is if you are doing it, it is "line-breeding", if your neighbor is doing it, it is "in-breeding". Another definition is if it is working then it is "line-breeding" but if it is making a mess of things then it is "in-breeding". Line-breeding is in-breeding and has the same results of fixing genes, both good and bad. When you mate relatives you will strengthen any good traits by concentrating the genes for that trait but by the same token you will expose any bad traits in your stock. By using in breeding techniques you can create lines of animals/birds which when cross with another line is called "out-breeding" and does have some heterosis effect.
 
Inbreeding by definition is the breeding of closely related individuals. How can a father/daughter mating possibly not be closely related? People can twist the definition to meet their needs but inbreeding is what it is. Linebreeding is inbreeding that is controlled and planned to help reduce the loss of immune system genes and to select for desirable traits.

As for advising people to not outcross, I have to say that can be very bad advise depending on the situation. What is best depends on the goals of the individual doing the matings. If the person wants to create a new breed and they don't outcross - well have fun with that one. If the person wants to develop egg color they do not have, again, they better be advised to make an outcross. If their goals are higher egg production, once again, an outcross will get them there quicker. I can go on and on with example after example where an outcross is the correct and best way to achieve a goal. Even show birds need outcrosses. Who has the perfect birds? Every group of birds I've ever seen, need some help in at least one area and if your flock doesn't not have the trait you are lacking, it isn't going to just appear out of thin air. You will have to bring it in. Sure, you bring in all traits, good and bad, but that is what linebreeding and working with your birds is all about.

The average backyard breeder does not show their birds. The average backyard breeder does not set up lines and systematically breed them to avoid immune system depression. Most simply allow indiscriminate inbreeding - possible picking the best rooster out of a small group and breeding it to all their hens - generation after generation. Outcrossing is immensely helpful to those who do this. A person who linebreeds with a good plan can go a lot longer than 20 years without bringing in new stock, but the vast majority of backyard breeders do not fall into that category.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think outcrossing can be extremely beneficial in the right situations.

I breed fish for a living and have been for 35 years. A few new breeds have been developed in my hatchery including Koi angelfish. I've used controlled linebreeding and selective outcrosses to accomplish this. You can see the fish here: http://www.angelsplus.com/FishKoi.htm

You many be interested in the genetics section I have written which touches on a few of these areas. http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleGenetics.htm

Steve, I don't believe your definition is quite correct. Granted there are variations of Linebreeding but those variations usually come in the form of Stud Mating or such.

"Inbreeding" is most often referred to as Brother to Sister matings. However, I suppose if one were to repeatedly do a Mother to Son or Father to Daughter, that would also be considered Inbreeding though I've never read where that was done. "Linebreeding" is when you mate Father to Daughter, then Grandfather to Granddaughter, Great Grandfather to Great Grandaughter and so forth. Or Mother to son to grandson, etc.

Your example above appears to be more of a modified flock mating or group mating. There doesn't appear to be any direct line that one would follow. And, in fact, it would be a form of "outcrossing" because by your own example you are going "outside" of Line 1 by crossing with Line 2, 3, etc.

"Outcrossing" is done anytime one goes outside of their line. This could be outside to another line within their own flock or completely outside their flock. I should have stipulated in my previous post that I do NOT recommend "outcrossing" by going outside your flock and bringing in blood from another breeder. To do so opens the proverbial Pandora's Box and you simply can't help but bring in a host of unknowns. Steve's example about outcrossing to get darker eggs is correct but the breeder MUST understand that along with bringing in dark egg genes, they are likely bringing in a host of other genes that may just as well set back the whole family. For example, what if one orders some hatching eggs and receives a dozen REALLY dark eggs? The recipient will likely be thrilled with the anticipation of finally getting some Wellies that lay really dark eggs. But what if those eggs also contain genes for stubs or white feathers or a host of any other undesirables?

"Cross breeding" on the other hand is done when one crosses a particular breed with a totally different breed or a variety that is not compatible. With the Welsummer there is little reason to do this outside of simply experimentation.

As for the "Joe Smith" and "Joe Blow" examples, I would again emphasize that it is more likely the "strain" that one should be concerned with - not the "line". And, while granted, if one knows that a certain person's birds routinely result in a poor characteristic, then it is likely that person is not much of a reputable breeder for that breed in the first place. And secondly, just because one gets eggs from "Joe Blow" who is "known" for having dark eggs, doesn't mean that's what you are going to wind up with! What if Joe Blow "outcrossed" and got a rooster from Joe Smith and you didn't bother asking that "pertinent question"? What if Joe Blow's best stud rooster died and he's now using a back up that hasn't been color tested yet or he's using a rooster that he knows came from hens who routinely lay light-colored eggs but he keeps those hens just for his egg customers? That's why I maintain that the "pertinent questions" are for more important than "whose line is this"?

I wish I could say that if one were to obtain Welsummers, they are in all likelihood getting pure Welsummers. However, one only has to go back thru this thread to find that may not be the case. But, for the sake of example, let's say that one has started off with pure Welsummers and good starter birds so they start with a foundational flock. (Even then, one may need to take 3-5 years to build a good foundational flock.) With that being the case, I would recommend having two separate lines. For the sake of example, let's call them A & B.

Within each line, the breeder can set one or two traits that he or she wishes to work on. Then I would recommend breeding within each line. In other words, A to A and B to B by the process of "linebreeding" as I described above. If the need arises to bring in "hybrid vigor", one can then "outcross" A to B and start a new C line. This is called maintaining a "Closed Flock".

This is the approach I've taken. I learned this by reading the articles in the Poultry Press by Kenny Troiano and I highly recommend them. Kenny has written a book and some may wish to get that as well. In the Poultry Press articles Kenny has written (which are actually excerpts taken from his book), he has outlined all the basic types of breeding plans and has given the pro's and con's for each. According to Kenny, using the process I described above, he has bred his birds for over 20 years and has NEVER had to bring in any outside blood.

For dummies like me who don't have a degree in genetics, it pays to keep it simple. By maintaining a closed flock and practicing the linebreeding method above, one by necessity limits the available genes that can be used. Ergo, one takes away over time the probability of variation and unknowns.

God Bless,
 
Great information, I like to read every ones take on the different discussions and ideas!

McSpin- nice website, had a few minutes yesterday to take a look and thanks for the link on the genetics, I find them fascinating
 
I breed fish for a living and have been for 35 years. A few new breeds have been developed in my hatchery including Koi angelfish. I've used controlled linebreeding and selective outcrosses to accomplish this. You can see the fish here: http://www.angelsplus.com/FishKoi.htm

You many be interested in the genetics section I have written which touches on a few of these areas. http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleGenetics.htm
Steve the orange on these is amazing!!! I have never seen any with that much!
 
WOW them are beautiful angels, I use to have 5 tanks, and my big angels I miss so much..... I cried when I had to get rid of them for the move, but these are awesome!!!! makes me want to start playing with again..........but sadly no time, and no room for tanks here. Maybe when I move again someday... TY for sharing them. Kim
 
Steve the orange on these is amazing!!! I have never seen any with that much!

Thank you so much. Yes, the orange is special on these.



WOW them are beautiful angels, I use to have 5 tanks, and my big angels I miss so much..... I cried when I had to get rid of them for the move, but these are awesome!!!! makes me want to start playing with again..........but sadly no time, and no room for tanks here. Maybe when I move again someday... TY for sharing them. Kim

Yes, angelfish are tempting. Thanks for the compliment.
 
Yes, but it also kinda covers what Steve is talking about too, only in the article it is calling it "Clan-Matings Breeding," "Rolling-Matings," or "Yard Breeding."

Which is just an more diverse form of what Royce was saying about "Line Breeding."

In my opinion they are the same thing.


Actually, they can't be considered the same thing for the same reason as I stated earlier. There is no "line" being established. Most importantly, with the "rolling-matings", "spiral", "yard" or what-have-you, there is no focus on specific traits but rather just picking the best from whatever comes of the pretty much random matings.

God Bless,
 

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