The Welsummer Thread!!!!

Many years ago when I was studying genetics the question was raised about the difference between "line-breeding" and "in-breeding". The professor said the main difference is if you are doing it, it is "line-breeding", if your neighbor is doing it, it is "in-breeding". Another definition is if it is working then it is "line-breeding" but if it is making a mess of things then it is "in-breeding". Line-breeding is in-breeding and has the same results of fixing genes, both good and bad. When you mate relatives you will strengthen any good traits by concentrating the genes for that trait but by the same token you will expose any bad traits in your stock. By using in breeding techniques you can create lines of animals/birds which when cross with another line is called "out-breeding" and does have some heterosis effect.


I wouldn't disagree with this - except for the part about whether you are doing it or a neighbor is. What is, is what is. I would say though that "in breeding" as defined by Brother x Sister matings are more likely to concentrate the genes and expose the traits (good or bad) much faster than father to daughter and so on down the line. One thing I didn't mention before that I remembered and will here is the notion of using a rooster twice and then using one of his offspring. I used to hold to that too but a recent article by Kenny Troiano in the PP has convinced me that is a mistake. I'll be using my roosters from here on out for as long as 5-6 years unless I get something that is significantly better before then. Since I still don't have a foundation flock yet, that is possible but my point is that I won't be so quick to change out roosters. Nor will I be breeding pullets as much as hens from now on either. He addresses that as well.

God Bless,
 
Inbreeding by definition is the breeding of closely related individuals. How can a father/daughter mating possibly not be closely related? People can twist the definition to meet their needs but inbreeding is what it is. Linebreeding is inbreeding that is controlled and planned to help reduce the loss of immune system genes and to select for desirable traits.

As for advising people to not outcross, I have to say that can be very bad advise depending on the situation. What is best depends on the goals of the individual doing the matings. If the person wants to create a new breed and they don't outcross - well have fun with that one. If the person wants to develop egg color they do not have, again, they better be advised to make an outcross. If their goals are higher egg production, once again, an outcross will get them there quicker. I can go on and on with example after example where an outcross is the correct and best way to achieve a goal. Even show birds need outcrosses. Who has the perfect birds? Every group of birds I've ever seen, need some help in at least one area and if your flock doesn't not have the trait you are lacking, it isn't going to just appear out of thin air. You will have to bring it in. Sure, you bring in all traits, good and bad, but that is what linebreeding and working with your birds is all about.

The average backyard breeder does not show their birds. The average backyard breeder does not set up lines and systematically breed them to avoid immune system depression. Most simply allow indiscriminate inbreeding - possible picking the best rooster out of a small group and breeding it to all their hens - generation after generation. Outcrossing is immensely helpful to those who do this. A person who linebreeds with a good plan can go a lot longer than 20 years without bringing in new stock, but the vast majority of backyard breeders do not fall into that category.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think outcrossing can be extremely beneficial in the right situations.

I breed fish for a living and have been for 35 years. A few new breeds have been developed in my hatchery including Koi angelfish. I've used controlled linebreeding and selective outcrosses to accomplish this. You can see the fish here: http://www.angelsplus.com/FishKoi.htm

You many be interested in the genetics section I have written which touches on a few of these areas. http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleGenetics.htm

I would agree that breeding father to daughter or mother to son is breeding "closely related" birds. But with "line breeding", that isn't going to happen all that often. I wouldn't say breeding great-grandfather to great-granddaughter is all that close. Same on the female side. One could argue that is still "inbreeding" because the breeding is still taking place within the "family" and I couldn't agrue with that. I'm just saying it is not what most folks I've read in the poultry world call it.

Of course if someone wants to create a new breed they are going to have to outcross or - more likely - cross breed. But that's not what the discussion was about. As for the "an outcross will get them there quicker" comment, I would say maybe and maybe not. But that is one of - if not THE - primary thing that Kenny addresses in his articles. The get there quickest goal. While quick results may be achieved, the overall long term damage that it may cause can NOT be understated! And btw, egg color is NOT part of the SOP.

As for who has "perfect birds", as I stated before there is no such thing. But it is something we all strive for while knowing it will never happen. And I never said that outcrossing should "never" be done. I said and still stand by that one should not do it unless there is an absolute need to - which is a real rarity - and only then after much careful consideration and research. The idea that something must be brought in to get there quicker is not what I call a necessity. And to say, "Sure, you bring in all traits, good and bad, but that is what linebreeding and working with your birds is all about" is just flat not the case. Linebreeding is "all about" getting rid of the unknowns! Not bringing more in! It is a systematic, methodical approach of getting to the best you can get through a process of elimination. One can never get there if they are constantly bringing in a whole new set of unknowns. Common sense dictates that fact.

I guess much of this all depends on how one defines the "average breeder". I will admit that my comments were not directed to the average backyard flock raiser who just wants a bunch of birds to lay eggs. Perhaps I should have been more clear on that. If that is the case, then I agree wholeheartedly with you Steve. If one simply is looking for quick results without consideration of the long-term impact on their birds, then by all means - outcross. Heck, crossbreed or do whatever. I do - believe it or not. I have a lot of fun making Easter Eggers. Just to see what the results are.

But I'm not breeding those EE's to a SOP and I'm not showing them. I am breeding my Welsummers to the SOP and I am showing them as well. So, let me be clear, the comments I've written here recently (and that I usually write) are intended for those who are lookiing to develop birds according to the SOP and who will probably be either showing their birds or at least want to breed SQ birds.

Sorry for not making that more clear from the start.

God Bless,
 
Actually, they can't be considered the same thing for the same reason as I stated earlier. There is no "line" being established. Most importantly, with the "rolling-matings", "spiral", "yard" or what-have-you, there is no focus on specific traits but rather just picking the best from whatever comes of the pretty much random matings.

God Bless,

Wait a minute. A line is established automatically by doing this. When you select the breeders that are mating, it is by definition not random matings. What do you think is used to select the breeders? Traits are used. People using this technique don't just throw a dart to pick a breeder. They select them for particular traits they exhibit. What other method is there for selecting breeders, other than traits? This particular method of working a line may not be one you prefer, but it is a line and it is not random matings.
 
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Wait a minute. A line is established automatically by doing this. When you select the breeders that are mating, it is by definition not random matings. What do you think is used to select the breeders? Traits are used. People using this technique don't just throw a dart to pick a breeder. They select them for particular traits they exhibit. What other method is there for selecting breeders, other than traits? This particular method of working a line may not be one you prefer, but it is a line and it is not random matings.


Sorry Steve but no, it is not "line breeding". Putting two birds together does not make a line. Using traits as the selection method is much different than choosing a mating from an established "line".

Perhaps "random" was not the best word to use. I'll give ya that. Sorry for the poor choice of words. Theoretically, one could use birds from within a line if the genetic background is known regardless of whether a trait is exposed. Ergo, a recessive gene not seen. The emphasis on "line breeding" is from the known pedigree. The major advantage of line-breeding is working with a known pedigree.

The "rolling", "spiral", "yard", and "flock" mating systems, simply do not allow for this. There MUST be some good reason why people like Troiano, Bostl, and other well-known breeders write what they do in the PP. This ain't just coming from me.

God Bless,
 
Folks!

Thanks for keeping this thread civil, particuarly to Tailfeathers and McSpin..you have all got good points and good conversations about the lines and strains! I have problems doing that too because all I can think of is Arabian horses when they use the "strain" for their lines...like Witraz, going back to Skowronek, who that sire has (Arabian names starts with either a J or K...can't remember now). It gets a bit confusing to do with Welsummers. If we can get some kind of example like Lowell Barber who has UK strain, that would be labeled as "Lowell Barber lines (UK strain)" Correct me if I am wrong!

Also heads up with the UK Welsummer Club, they have updated their website and good to see some changes but it is pretty much the same but added some information on there. Its been long overdue!

http://www.welsummerclub.org/Index.htm

Sorry I do not have any SOP pictures, wished some would show very good with their Welsummers and get some pictures that I can post it on the WCNA website. However like Royce mentioned earlier, not very many of us are showing but in due time we WILL get some posted. I am sure right now there are some inconsisency going on and we all must work hard getting there, posting our "trademark" in the Welsummers, just like Royce is working on his.

Continue on!
 
It gets a bit confusing to do with Welsummers. If we can get some kind of example like Lowell Barber who has UK strain, that would be labeled as "Lowell Barber lines (UK strain)" Correct me if I am wrong!


Yes, that is a good example. The definitions go like this:

Variety: Any of a group of widely separated variants within a single interbreeding population. As used within the chicken world, varieties of Welsummers would be something like "partridge" or "duck wing", etc..

Strain: The descendants of a common group within a variety. I may be working on a strain of partridge Welsummers that have darker brown eggs from the normal teracotta color. Another breeder may have a different strain where he works on bigger bodies. They are both the same variety, but a different strain of that variety.

Line: The descendants of a common ancestor within a strain. For example, I decide to set up four separate lines within my strain of dark-egg-laying Welsummers. Each line is kept separate and periodically out-crossed to another of the four lines to create a new line. The use of lines is a modifier form of inbreeding to help keep the immune system strong, while maintaining the same strain within the same variety.
 
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I'll expand further on how to develop a line.

Let's say I went to a show and bought the best show-quality Welsummer rooster that was available. Pretend that I was disappointed with the average production of show Welsummers and I found a hatchery where their Welsummers layed an average of 275 eggs/year. I buy a trio of their best hens.

The first year, I hatch all the eggs I can get, so I can select my best birds the following season to start linebreeding. The following season, I set up 3 separate pens, each with select birds that I grew up. For the next 2-4 years, I breed the best rooster produced out of each pen to the best hens produced in that same pen. In the year after this inbreeding stretch, I make a move - I take the best rooster from line A and put it will the best hens produced that year from line B. The best rooster from line B goes with the best hens from line C and the best rooster from line C with the best hens produced in line A. After this, I inbreed each pen again for another 2-4 years and repeat.

From a couple birds - not closely related, I create a new line of Welsummers with the goal of high lay rate and show quality birds. This would be a line unique in it's qualities. It could take decades to end up with the ultimate goal of have high production, show quality Welsummers (trust me, I know). It would be a worthy goal and result in a new line that will breed consistent quality birds. Just because it took a long time, doesn't mean the line doesn't exist until the goal is accomplished. It exists as soon as you get to the F1 generation. It just needs a lot of work. However, all lines need work, it's just a matter of how much.
 
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I'll expand further on how to develop a line.

Let's say I went to a show and bought the best show-quality Welsummer rooster that was available.  Pretend that I was disappointed with the average production of show Welsummers and I found a hatchery where their Welsummers layed an average of 275 eggs/year.  I buy a trio of their best hens. 

The first year, I hatch all the eggs I can get, so I can select my best birds the following season to start linebreeding.  The following season, I set up 3 separate pens, each with select birds that I grew up.  For the next 2-4 years, I breed the best rooster produced out of each pen to the best hens produced in that same pen.  In the year after this inbreeding stretch, I make a move - I take the best rooster from line A and put it will the best hens produced that year from line B. The best rooster from line B goes with the best hens from line C and the best rooster from line C with the best hens produced in line A.   After this, I inbreed each pen again for another 2-4 years and repeat.  

From a couple birds - not closely related, I create a new line of Welsummers with the goal of high lay rate and show quality birds.  This would be a line unique in it's qualities.  It could take decades to end up with the ultimate goal of have high production, show quality Welsummers (trust me, I know).   It would be a worthy goal and result in a new line that will breed consistent quality birds.  Just because it took a long time, doesn't mean the line doesn't exist until the goal is accomplished.  It exists as soon as you get to the F1 generation. It just needs a lot of work.  However, all lines need work, it's just a matter of how much. 


Very good explanations on this it's workls basically the same with most animals, including Arabian Horses, Like the Kemosabi line.... beautiful horse BTW, most native Arabians are bred this way in Syria, and Damascus.sorry about the spelling. I was thinking that was the way with chickens as well but I was not sure until your clarification..TY Kim
 

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