The Welsummer Thread!!!!

[Tailfeathers]

Like you said, Steve, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Using your very example above, one can see very easily that for the first 2-4 years a "line" is being established because of the closed breeding within that group of birds. But as soon as you go from A to B and B to C and so forth, you're starting all over with a completely different line.

That is MUCH different than a continual line of father to daughter to granddaughter to great granddaughter etc.

But I think I've already hashed that ground over pretty well. Like I said when I first started, for those who are looking to learn the pro's and con's of the various methods for mating birds, I strongly encourage you to check out Kenny Troiano's books and articles in the PP. When somebody publicly proclaims to have the most photographed chicken in the world (Maximus) whose offspring are highly sought after all over the world, I have to assume either he is the biggest storyteller and braggart in the world - or he actually knows what he's talking about.

God Bless,

 

[McSpin]

Quote:
No, line A,B and C come from the same parents, so they are all closely related and the same line. If I brought in a new outcross, the result would be a new line, but I didn't. Just rotating the breeders, does not make for a new line.


Quote:
I would never make such an assumption. I would say that he has the the most photographed chicken in the world that people really like, and that he may or may not know anything on the subjects that he talks about. He may also be very good at breeding chickens and very poor at explaining how his results relate to backyard breeders. I don' t know what his talents are. If he is telling backyard breeders to avoid outcrosses, he is dead wrong. If that is not what he's saying, I'd have to know exactly what it is, to comment.

 

[Tailfeathers]

Ok folks, I think this horse is probably dead but I'll make one last post on this. First, as I've said many times before, there is a difference between a "line" and a "strain". Steve is confusing "line breeding" with "flock mating within a 'strain'". Do your own research from here. I've tried my best and don't wish to have any more of this back and forth. Again, do NOT take my word for it. Check out for yourself what Kenny and other "Master Breeders" (easy enough to find who they are in an APA Yearbooks) have to say.

Second, I would say that if someone has the most photographed chicken in the world that is a direct result of HIS LINE-BREEDING, has people from ALL around the world seeking HIS birds from 20+ YEARS of LINE-BREEDING without EVER going outside of HIS flock for new blood AND is having articles in the national paper on a monthly basis published from HIS numerous books on POULTRY BREEDING - THEN in ALL probability he DOES KNOW what he's talking about. To say that he "may or may not know" what he's talking about, I think says enough in and of itself. Maybe I'm too gullible because I make an assumption that a preponderance of evidence leads one to a reasonable assurance that one can be looked to as an authoritative source - but I prefer to think of it as being humble enough to know that there are others with a whole lot more experience that I can learn from. And again, Kenny is NOT the only well-known breeder that I have read say the same thing.

Lastly, whether or not his articles and this discussion is intended for "backyard breeders", I guess is open to interpretation as to just what a "backyard breeder" is. I happen to breed my birds in my backyard - big as it may be. I believe his articles are intended for what I would call a "serious breeder" whose desire is to work from the SOP toward the SOP. In other words, to work toward developing the perfect bird - all the while knowing that it will never be accomplished. I don't think his articles are intended for those who wish to just throw a bunch of birds together and continue to bring in other birds because there is something about them that leads one to believe they will achieve immediate gratification thru the introduction of new blood. And I KNOW that my comments and attempts to refer others to him were not intended toward that goal. I also know I've heard the term "backyard breeder" being referenced as those who get some eggs/chicks/birds from some very well-known name of the day (i.e. Barber, Cratty, Ledford, Schrider, Bostl, Wade - name your breed and I bet you've seen them) or from someone who says they got their birds from them, and then they raise them up and start selling chicks or eggs and exhorbitant prices! They've either never bred the birds or maybe bred them once and call themselves a breeder and then sell their eggs/chicks for a bunch of money. IMO, those "backyard breeders" aren't doing the Fancy any good.

I've read a few times that the chicken has the most complex genetic makeup of any animal alive. Common-sense reasoning dictates that ANYTIME one brings NEW blood into their flock they are by NECESSITY bringing in a whole new facet of UNKNOWNS. If one wishes to bring in who-knows-what and how much of it, all for the sake of getting darker eggs or some other trait improved on, I say God Bless 'em. But they just ought to know going in that's what they're doing so they can make an informed decision.

God Bless,

 

[McSpin]

Quote:

I haven't read his books and you've quoted nothing that he has said. How could I know if he's right or not on a statement? And to say that it "says enough in and of itself", is also a misleading at best.
Quote:

There has been no preponderance of evidence about anything given in this thread, which is what I'm commenting on. A person can be a very good breeder, using great techniques to develop line. I'm not debating that. I'm saying specifically, that if someone is recommending to never outcross or "rarely", and to give this recommendation without knowing the situation the breeder is in, then they are giving very poor advise.

Quote:
However, the vast majority of people reading this forum and an even larger majority of chicken keepers worldwide, do just that. This is exactly why I said that the decision to outcross depends on the situation and the goals of the person doing the outcross. Very few of us are show breeders keeping many pens of one variety while engaging in elaborate linebreeding. This is what the serious breeders do, and they are generally producing very good animals. There is no debating that these people should be linebreeding and being very careful about any outcross. For the 99.9% of the rest of us, outcrosses can be very useful.

 

[Hens and Roos]

What does PP stand for? Is it online and it this something anyone can read or is it a members only type of information?

Like you said, Steve, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Using your very example above, one can see very easily that for the first 2-4 years a "line" is being established because of the closed breeding within that group of birds. But as soon as you go from A to B and B to C and so forth, you're starting all over with a completely different line.

That is MUCH different than a continual line of father to daughter to granddaughter to great granddaughter etc.

But I think I've already hashed that ground over pretty well. Like I said when I first started, for those who are looking to learn the pro's and con's of the various methods for mating birds, I strongly encourage you to check out Kenny Troiano's books and articles in the PP. When somebody publicly proclaims to have the most photographed chicken in the world (Maximus) whose offspring are highly sought after all over the world, I have to assume either he is the biggest storyteller and braggart in the world - or he actually knows what he's talking about.

God Bless,

 

[ruth]

Hi Everyone - I've been gone from BYC for a long time - most of this past year - because I've been so busy on my farm and taming and training the 16 wild Appaloosa horses I bought in May - what an "adventure". In any event, I'm back and trying to focus on my various breeds of chickens. I have Welsummers but really have no idea how they rate/compare to SOP so I thought I'd post a few pics and see what you experts have to say. I can honestly say I have not followed this thread and when I tried to catch up, I got a tad overwhelmed. I'm still barely figuring out the SOP for the Black Copper Marans and I've been working on that for four years. I started out with stock from Whitmore Farms and then after reading the SOP and based on my own interpretation/visualization of same and what I personally like in my stock - I've been breeding the "best of the best" with consistent results. I think from the recent conversation there are those that say this is the "wrong" way to do it but so far it has worked for me.Feel free to let me know what I need to work on in my Bethel Line of Welsummers.

Comb/Eyes:




Body/Color







Small girl in front is young pullet just added to pen before she begins laying.






Legs (fuzzy but you get the idea of yellow/orange color)




Egg color (Always varies)



Finally - a younger roo not in breeder pen cause I don't like his comb.

 

[kabaluch76]

I am planning on getting a few Welsummers...was on the Meyer Hatchery site...having problems registering..any of you know what they cost to ship? thanks. love the pics of the birds..

 

[EweSheep]

McSpin, it makes a whole LOTTA sense!

Its hard to do that with chickens when you CAN do it with horses which they all have certain lines for certain traits but having different Arabian language names of strains that can benefit Arabian horse breeders. Some strains "click" better than others.

I like the last sentences on how we need to work on it...going to take time getting there and be consisent as well.

 

[EweSheep]

Beautiful birds, Ruth!!!!!!!!!!!! I love the colors on the roo!

Royce, I may have to read up on that guy's article when I do have alot of time on my hands!

 

[GhostRider65]

Very gorgeous birds I would take that rooster you don't want with the funky comb .........how handsome he is even with an imperfect comb.........I don't show and as far as SOP I'm not really fussy, my chickens will do what they will I will always keep the best ones but as far as doing the whole line breeding thing and culling so many I just can't do it I love my chickens tooooo much.
They are gorgeous tho...Kim