The Welsummer Thread!!!!

[Hens and Roos]

I had some new OE pullets start laying, and I used some of my Welsummer pullet eggs for a picture comparison... I'm really happy with the pretty, speckled eggs my two Wellie girls are laying!

nice colors! love the speckles!

 

[EweSheep]

Thank you Don for clarifying the SOP on the "fluff" It is so difficult to maintain it thru our Welsummers and various breeders have different opinions on it. Wished the SOP has an update information regarding that matter because it has not been looked over thoroughly but the older breeders or uninformed breeders that had NO idea regarding to the colors and how much fluff they should have exposed thru the tail head.

We are certainly learning about it!

 

[snowbird]

Thank you Don for clarifying the SOP on the "fluff" It is so difficult to maintain it thru our Welsummers and various breeders have different opinions on it. Wished the SOP has an update information regarding that matter because it has not been looked over thoroughly but the older breeders or uninformed breeders that had NO idea regarding to the colors and how much fluff they should have exposed thru the tail head.

We are certainly learning about it!

Hi, Last year I had brought up the question of the white in Wing and tail to Walt leonard and he took the question to the full committe at the show in Washington State and came back with the White in Wing and Tail was a DQ and the white in the Tail coverts would be a fault. In all actuality I believe the white Tail Covert should also be a DQ the way the SOP reads. Most all of this has been put into the first 40 pages of the SOP and very little is mentioned in the breed section.

I have been doing a lot of single matings and some double matings with the Welsummers and Wheaten Marans to try and nail down a way to breed this out of the two breeds and any other breed where we have the problem. Should no for sure after the fall breedings .

 

[snowbird]

Let me also add here, go out and catch up a male that has the white fluff tail coverts and look at where it is coming from. Some think it is just there for no reason, but on looking closer you will find that it it actually the tail Coverts and the should have a darker fluff.

I have worked on this white tail coverts for several year on the Dutch Bantams and it works the very same way.

 

[snowbird]

Thanks for the answers.

I am not completely sure I understand the double mating, or at least what it does. Is this done with the same parents? Is it to have chicks from different clutches for some reason? Do you just keep all males---breed and hatch again, and then keep all females? What does this do? It would still be the same gene pool.

I hope this isn't a really dumb question but I am unclear on the purpose of the double mating.

Sorry I missed this post on double mating. Double mating is where you have a mating set up to produce female and another setup to produce males. Lot of serious show fowl breeders use the double mating along with single mating. Single mating is one male and one female. If you use trap nest you can have more than one female in the breeding pen as long as they are all banded and you number the eggs.

 

[janchilds]

Sorry I missed this post on double mating. Double mating is where you have a mating set up to produce female and another setup to produce males. Lot of serious show fowl breeders use the double mating along with single mating. Single mating is one male and one female. If you use trap nest you can have more than one female in the breeding pen as long as they are all banded and you number the eggs.

Don,

I too am interested in more information on the double mating. I get that you are looking to produce females with one group and males with the other... but what traits (as in different) are you focusing on? Is there something specifically you want more for the roos or with the hens.

We have sheep and after breeding our rams to the flock, it is often obvious that he is a great producer of females or vice versa. But truly we purchase or keep back rams because they are the whole package. It isn't until after the fact that we know better how to utilize them.

Great info! Thanks!!

 

[snowbird]

Don,

I too am interested in more information on the double mating. I get that you are looking to produce females with one group and males with the other... but what traits (as in different) are you focusing on? Is there something specifically you want more for the roos or with the hens.

We have sheep and after breeding our rams to the flock, it is often obvious that he is a great producer of females or vice versa. But truly we purchase or keep back rams because they are the whole package. It isn't until after the fact that we know better how to utilize them.

Great info! Thanks!!

Will start off and say do not breed the white in wing and tail males, also do not breed the white tail covert males in any breeding program as you will never eliminate the white from your flock.

In this problem the main thing would be the male breeding. Choose some of the darker undercolor females along with the main body feathers and breed them with a male that good color especially no white.

For the female mating you would want to use lighter colored females.

The most important thing is band every one of the breeders and mark all eggs and toe punch and record all chicks, some will produce better quality and you can cull the one's from non producing females.

 

[skylinepoultry]

please post pics 

As much as I'd like to, I'm not ready to be critiqued right yet. People can be pretty harsh on here and I still have a ways to go to get to where I'd like to see my Wellies. But I'll have some surprises to show y'all on this thread in about two years

 

[Tailfeathers]

The tail fluff that is white is the tail coverts and we do not want to breed this forward in any of the males. If you use a male with the cottontail as a breeder you will never breed this FAULT out of your fowl. This certainly can be bred out and will explain how if anyone is interested.

I don't understand what you're saying? The second sentence says it will "never" be bred out and the last sentence says it can be? Please explain? And, if this particular genetic trait can "never" be bred out, exactly why is that?

Will start off and say do not breed the white in wing and tail males, also do not breed the white tail covert males in any breeding program as you will never eliminate the white from your flock.

In this problem the main thing would be the male breeding. Choose some of the darker undercolor females along with the main body feathers and breed them with a male that good color especially no white.

For the female mating you would want to use lighter colored females.

The most important thing is band every one of the breeders and mark all eggs and toe punch and record all chicks, some will produce better quality and you can cull the one's from non producing females.

I agree that one should not breed birds that have any white in the wing or tails. And I would go further to say males or females. But again, I must ask where this "you will never eliminate" is coming from? That certainly hasn't been my experience. Walt has discussed this in fairly great detail on this thread before. At least I think it was this thread. A search should reveal more info.

I would also say that this idea of "never" breeding a bird because of one particular trait is in most cases simply not sound. It reminds me of the big hoo-da-rah I just went through over on the Ameraucana thread about egg color. With the exception of an obvious DQ, there are rare exceptions where I would recommend someone cull a bird solely because it posseses one undesirable fault. There are just far too many considerations that must be made if one is to have a sound breeding program. Each breeder must establish their own priorities. Most experienced breeders know that you can't work on more than one or two traits at a time and it takes some time to get those set before moving on to another one or two. Each breeder has to evaluate his or her own flock and then decide what course of action to take.

To simply say that a Welsummer cockerel or rooster should not be used because it has too much fluff at the tail or the fluff is "too white" (where I would argue that too much gray fluff is just as bad) may be doing more harm than good. I can tell you from experience that getting tunnel vision on a specific trait is NOT a good thing when putting your breeding plan together. You absolutely must take into consideraton ALL the various traits for which the bird is judged on. Failure to do so will ultimately result in another particular trait getting overlooked. And you probably won't even realize it until you see your bird sitting next to another's in the showcage.

For example, take the sex-linked yellow leg gene. If you're so focused on the fluff at the base of your male's tail, you might cull him when he would otherwise have terrific leg color that is sorely needed by your females. Anyone needing to know more on that can do a Google for sex-linked yellow leg color. Female leg color can easily be overlooked because their legs can wash out some once they start laying. But they don't have to. I've got one 2-year old hen that still has great leg color because of her Daddy. On the other hand, you cull all your yellow-legged males because of some fluff and breed only white legged males and you're gonna be in trouble before long with both your males and females.

So all this is simply to say that my recommendation is to not use males with excess fluff if you don't have to but make sure that whatever you use or cull fits the priorities you've established for your own flock and your own breeding program. To my knowledge there is no trait that can't be eliminated given enough time and effort.

That is why I definitely recommend keeping a closed flock, linebreeding two separate lines (so you can outcross to your own birds), toepunching, and keeping meticulous records.

God Bless,

 

[snowbird]

I don't understand what you're saying? The second sentence says it will "never" be bred out and the last sentence says it can be? Please explain? And, if this particular genetic trait can "never" be bred out, exactly why is that?


I agree that one should not breed birds that have any white in the wing or tails. And I would go further to say males or females. But again, I must ask where this "you will never eliminate" is coming from? That certainly hasn't been my experience. Walt has discussed this in fairly great detail on this thread before. At least I think it was this thread. A search should reveal more info.

I would also say that this idea of "never" breeding a bird because of one particular trait is in most cases simply not sound. It reminds me of the big hoo-da-rah I just went through over on the Ameraucana thread about egg color. With the exception of an obvious DQ, there are rare exceptions where I would recommend someone cull a bird solely because it posseses one undesirable fault. There are just far too many considerations that must be made if one is to have a sound breeding program. Each breeder must establish their own priorities. Most experienced breeders know that you can't work on more than one or two traits at a time and it takes some time to get those set before moving on to another one or two. Each breeder has to evaluate his or her own flock and then decide what course of action to take.

To simply say that a Welsummer cockerel or rooster should not be used because it has too much fluff at the tail or the fluff is "too white" (where I would argue that too much gray fluff is just as bad) may be doing more harm than good. I can tell you from experience that getting tunnel vision on a specific trait is NOT a good thing when putting your breeding plan together. You absolutely must take into consideraton ALL the various traits for which the bird is judged on. Failure to do so will ultimately result in another particular trait getting overlooked. And you probably won't even realize it until you see your bird sitting next to another's in the showcage.

For example, take the sex-linked yellow leg gene. If you're so focused on the fluff at the base of your male's tail, you might cull him when he would otherwise have terrific leg color that is sorely needed by your females. Anyone needing to know more on that can do a Google for sex-linked yellow leg color. Female leg color can easily be overlooked because their legs can wash out some once they start laying. But they don't have to. I've got one 2-year old hen that still has great leg color because of her Daddy. On the other hand, you cull all your yellow-legged males because of some fluff and breed only white legged males and you're gonna be in trouble before long with both your males and females.

So all this is simply to say that my recommendation is to not use males with excess fluff if you don't have to but make sure that whatever you use or cull fits the priorities you've established for your own flock and your own breeding program. To my knowledge there is no trait that can't be eliminated given enough time and effort.

That is why I definitely recommend keeping a closed flock, linebreeding two separate lines (so you can outcross to your own birds), toepunching, and keeping meticulous records.

God Bless,

Look at the second sentence and you will see that I said that if you breed the welsummer male with the white Coverts you will never breed the white out of your Welsummer males. The fluff you keep talking about is actually the Tail Coverts , it not just fluff, I am breeding to the SOP and believe everything I have stated here to be true with my 60 years of poultry breeding.

I have done a lot of single matings to come to what I believe is correct. I would suggest you keep on breeding whatever way you like.