The Wyandotte Thread

[marquisella]

I just took a long read through my SOP. There is no stated DQ for Wyandottes. It says to see "cuttinng for defects" in the Judges section. Under that section, in the points for combs, there is no mention of deducting points for an incorrect comb. That reads to me, that a single comb,, in a show, could be considered a fault, not a dq.

Plus, every variety that is explained for Wyandottes in that SOP, discusses how they were made, and almost all of them, were made by using another breed with a single comb. Most commonly, Cochins.

A person who is truly a "breeder" and finds themselves with an exceptional bird, as the one in question in this thread, would use that bird in their breeding program for its outstanding qualities, and be aware to minimize the incidence of the single comb in future generations.

In my opinion, a single comb in a Wyandotte, is a minor problem. Throwing out the "baby with the bathwater" doesn't make sense in any type of animal breeding program.

In my experience, talking to old time Wyandotte breeders, the most common opinion seems to be, not to keep a male with a single come, but its perfectly ok to use a female.

There are also some of the opinion that to improve fertility, use a rooster with a rose comb, that is out of a single combed hen. I can't say whether that is true or not, but I have read it in quite a few places.

 

[turbo]

Quote:
If Kathie took her to a show she couldn't compete because she's a splash-laced blue, even before the comb. Your duns and barred couldn't compete either. So does that mean they're not Wyandottes?

A DQ is a DQ - it's a fault. Some of them are functional or production faults, which should (I absolutely agree) be reamed out of a flock with zero sentimentality. And some are cosmetic faults, which don't contribute to the breed as a working animal. Cosmetic faults in a superior functioning animal will always get a pass from me. It's pureBRED, not pureLOOKS. know Kathie's hen (who is absolutely gorgeous in person) and I know that when she was shipped to Kathie from a very good breeder she arrived as a Wyandotte. She's produced some of the rose comb chicks in my brooder right now, who are demonstrably the product of two Wyandottes, not a Wyandotte and a mixed-breed.

Every animal I can think of - barring, I guess, chickens - has an incredibly valuable population of "breeding quality" non-showable individuals. The ones who have the body and brain and pedigree but not the spots or stripes or whatever. Since color (and, in chickens, comb type) can be solved in one generation, whereas the fundamental issues take years to even begin to get consistent, focusing on the fundamentals and making them consistent is what creates a strong breeding population. Making easily solved cosmetic issues your first culling criteria is, I think, not a great idea, unless your definition of success is consistent cosmetics. It's just not mine.

I would not call a single comb on a Wyandotte a cosmetic fault.....The rosecomb on a Wyandotte is a very functional comb for a bird that was bred to withstand the freezing temperatures of NY...a comb with frostbite will cause your hens to stop laying..a rooster with frostbite will be temporally infertile....having a bird with a pea comb or rose comb in areas with hard winters is a very functional chicken.

Its up to each breeder if it bothers them to have the single comb gene lurking around in their Wyandottes...its certainly nothing to get upset with each other over....as long as the breeder is honest about the fact that if you purchase chicks from them they may get single comb chicks in the mix. I still get small number of single comb chicks in my BLRW breeding pen...but I am constantly trying to cull it out...which takes time to do.

Genetics is a funny thing.....what you are suppose to get and what you really get are two different things...I cant count how many times the "Genetic Chicken Calculator" has been wrong when I enter a breeding into it and then set up the breeding pen..and then see how the chicks turn out. You never really know what is lurking under the feathers of your chicken...

I would have to get enough energy to look it up, but I thought the difference between the rose comb and single comb birds was that the sperm lived a little longer when coming from the single comb rooster? Honestly I don't know of anyone who is having serious trouble with fertility in their Wyandottes? There seems to be plenty of the Large Fowl Wyandottes at the shows....

Hopefully this can debated without anyone getting upset about it and we can all learn from the discussion...

Jerry

 

[rtroxel]

Quote:
Well, I've been hatching the large partridge for about 8 years and I've never had a hatch year with more hens than males. All the science says that it's not possible, but right now, my overall ratio on some 300-400 chicks in those years is about 100:200 or maybe 70:230. Last year I got 7 hens and 25 roosters and the year before that I got 1 hen and 18 roosters. Maybe those Rose comb birds are infertile but they sure know how to cover their bases. I should never run out of sperm!!!

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

Jerry - I find the Wyandotte breeders complaining about low fertility in the 1920s - in the Wyandotte Herald. At that time a breeder was blaming the fact that Wyandottes had gotten too big and ball-like

. So it was the fancy that was noticing, not the researchers first. What got the researchers interested was that the Whites were being pushed as a production breed, and (as I understand it) from the 20s to the 40s the poultrymen got super frustrated and said "What the heck, I can't get fertile eggs, I'm switching to RIR."

(Interestingly, even earlier in the US, when the Poultry Advocate was where you got your eggs, the Wyandotte (which was SUPER popular) eggs were being guaranteed by sellers at 75% fertile while the Leghorns were 95%.)

In the 40s a researcher named Hutt gathered ten years of data on flocks that ranged from 80% fertility down to very low/unacceptable numbers and said "You're right, something's wrong here." He found the Wyandotte flocks (these were some of the really great strains in Ireland and England, linebred named birds) to have much lower fertility and hatchability than the RIRs and Leghorns they were being compared to.

Ten years later, in France, Cochez found that he could attribute the difference to homozygous rose comb genes. After that, in Massachusetts, Crawford and Smyth found that homozygous rose comb birds not only had depressed semen but were less virile - in mixed groups single-comb males always won, single-comb females were preferred by all males, single-comb males were preferred by all females, and carriers were preferred over homozygous.

Then everybody focused on why this was happening, and found that rose comb sperm died faster, moved slower, had lower motility (the number of moving sperm in the sample) and so on. Lots of amino acids were found to be wrong in the rose comb semen.

So this was a search that came out of the concern of poultry fanciers and producers, was not limited to one country, looked at the best strains, and came to a unanimous conclusion.

By the way, I've got to think that it's the reason that the Wyadottes didn't "win." If you look at the early magazines, they're dominated by just a few breeds that EVERYBODY is breeding and bragging about. Rocks (especially Barred), White Leghorns, Rhode Island Reds... and Wyandottes. Massive, massive numbers of Wyandottes. Now look at what have survived as production breeds - Rocks are still going strong as parent stock for a bunch of hybrids, as are White Leghorns. RIRs became the Production Reds that feed most of the world. And the Wyandottes are pretty much gone as a production breed.

I don't want anyone to think that I'm running down Wyandottes, because I'm not. I think they are as close to a perfect home breed as they come, calm and curious and beautiful and big. But the fertility issue is one that every breeder needs to understand and have some kind of strategy to overcome, whether it's by having a low ratio or using single-comb hens or whatever it might be.

 

[Ivywoods]

Very interesting information. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been too big of an issue with a lot of the breeders here is because they do use a relatively low ratio and are more "perfection" minded than "production" minded.

I find it all interesting, but it certainly isn't going to deflect me from starting a small flock of WW and SLW.

 

[turbo]

Quote:
Well then it sounds like you would be fine with using Wyandottes that have the single comb gene....I will stick with trying to stay away from birds that carry the gene. Sounds like we agree to disagree...LOL. I dont think you will have any problems with them unless you try to show a single comb wyandotte at a show...

 

[turbo]

Quote:
In the 1998 APA SOP under General Disqualifications, it lists Disqualifications for combs in All Breeds and Varieties: ..NO#1 Comb foreign to breed or variety. Also lack of a spike is a DQ.

So the way I read the SOP showing a Wyandotte with a single comb is a DQ, and honestly the bird would probably be DQ'd because the judge would think you are showing a Rock in the Wyandotte class.

Jerry

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

Quote:
That was what I was thinking. No comb foreign to the breed. So a single comb in a Wyandotte or a Rose Comb in a Rock would be a disqualification. Unless you entered them as a new variety. Then you may win the variety, but not the breed.

 

[WyandotteTX]

Just wanted to state that if I was to show my Barred Wyandotte Bantams, they are an accepted variety within the ABA. As are my White Laced Reds. Several of the rare varieties of Wyandotte bantams were accepted into the standard many years ago. These would include the varieties of Birchen, Brown Red, Lemon Blue, Black Breasted Red and Blue Breasted Red. I have never seen any of these varieties myself, I would imagine they would have to be recreated. Best bet would be to start with Black Breasted Red I would think. Birchen could be created by crossing Black with Columbian. Brown Red could be made my crossing Black with Buff Columbian. I havent ever tried to create these but ya never know if I get bored in the future

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

The Wyandotte breeders of yesteryear did something more than the Orpington breeders. They got all these wonderful colors entered in the SOP. I have 4H members who would love some of these colors, especially the Dun. The variety of color in the Wyandotte Bantams at Shawnee was awesome. Still a bit sad that only two Buffs were there. But I have my breeding pen set up. One egg in the incubator. Hoping to hatch a lot. Am thinking about getting a few hatching eggs from Andy Anderson.