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Thoughts on Universal healthcare
- Thread starter sugarbush
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Now that is a true quote.
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At this time, this may be difficult for many.
American ingenuity!! It can be done.
Personal responsibility and pride. It used to be a very common thing in this country.
Entitlement attitude. Getting waaaaayyyy to prominent these days.
At this time, this may be difficult for many.
American ingenuity!! It can be done.
Personal responsibility and pride. It used to be a very common thing in this country.
Entitlement attitude. Getting waaaaayyyy to prominent these days.
Check out this site for differences between capitalism, socialism, and communism.
America is considered capitalist, but is getting further from that each passing day.
http://graphcomp.com/home/bfree/opinions/economy.html
America is considered capitalist, but is getting further from that each passing day.
http://graphcomp.com/home/bfree/opinions/economy.html
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isnt Cuba still communist?
i dont watch the news very much anymore... and dont be rude to me..i am simply trying to learn...
Yes they are, and Fidel has retired.
And in the film Sicko a boat load of 911 rescue workers (with ailments caused by their efforts in the rescue efforts, who were denied coverage by their health care providers and denied coverage from funds set aside for the care of 911 rescuers) went to Cuba, walked into a hospital and got extended treatments and spent next to nothing on it. I forget exactly, but more than one spent about a week there and came home with a sack full of meds and the final bill was dirt cheap ($10-$100).
Yes, I'm not so stupid to assume it wasn't set up to some extent. But on a whole I believe it (the Cuba sequence of events) since I and many around me have gone rounds with the insurance companies.
And I've got many friends that live overseas or have lived overseas and Canada too. And the only people I hear complaining about the medical services of these countries are Americans, people that have lived with them complain, but typically their complaints aren't anything you don't hear here. Usually it's stuff like waiting too long in waiting rooms and waiting for test results etc. But I've never heard anyone complain about not having choice of doctor, or level of service, or anything those. In fact most of them are scared as hell to be here in states in case something medical does happen to them.
isnt Cuba still communist?
Yes they are, and Fidel has retired.
And in the film Sicko a boat load of 911 rescue workers (with ailments caused by their efforts in the rescue efforts, who were denied coverage by their health care providers and denied coverage from funds set aside for the care of 911 rescuers) went to Cuba, walked into a hospital and got extended treatments and spent next to nothing on it. I forget exactly, but more than one spent about a week there and came home with a sack full of meds and the final bill was dirt cheap ($10-$100).
Yes, I'm not so stupid to assume it wasn't set up to some extent. But on a whole I believe it (the Cuba sequence of events) since I and many around me have gone rounds with the insurance companies.
And I've got many friends that live overseas or have lived overseas and Canada too. And the only people I hear complaining about the medical services of these countries are Americans, people that have lived with them complain, but typically their complaints aren't anything you don't hear here. Usually it's stuff like waiting too long in waiting rooms and waiting for test results etc. But I've never heard anyone complain about not having choice of doctor, or level of service, or anything those. In fact most of them are scared as hell to be here in states in case something medical does happen to them.
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thanks, i'll check it out...
thanks, i'll check it out...
The more I read this thread, the more convinced I am of the need for stem cell research.
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JUST A JOKE!
Thought I'd lighten this thread up a little before I leave it be for good.
____________________________________________________________________
JUST A JOKE!
Thought I'd lighten this thread up a little before I leave it be for good.
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It's late and took me a while to read all this thread so I just want to add a few facts from my experiances...
I am all for universal health and here is why...
My husband and I are self employed and due to pre-existing illnesses no insurance company will cover us... So I am self pay... and When I am self pay I get sub-standard care if any care at all! And I tend to pay my bills in full the day of the visit (paying in full is the only way I can get a discount besides most docs will only split the bill into 2 payments anyhow so it's not much help to set up a payment plan)
A while back I had a severely abscessed tooth and called every dentist with in a 100 mile radius and couldn't get in anywhere! I informed them it was an emergency visit and I would pay the bill in full the day of the visit but I was told they refused to see me because I didn't have insurance... So I ordered antibiotics from Mexico and took care of it myself...
A few months later it flared up again, but this time I was pregnant and was on Medicaid for a bit... I called the one of the dentist that I had called before but now since I had Medicaid they made me an appointment I was also told that because I was on Medicaid I didn't have to go on the 6 month waiting list for new patients that Medicaid requires they treat me within 30 days!!!
So due to the government putting regulations on treatment I got in faster when I was going to pay cash I couldn't get in at all and if I had private insurance I would have to wait 6 months for an emergency visit!
If the plan is set up right and they put limits on waiting lists such as in this example then around here the quality of health care will improve...
I have several more experiences just like this and I'm tired of fighting the system... I'm sick of paying outrageous amounts for very little if any care given... I had to pay $200 for a visit when my little girl had bronchitis she has asthma and I was told she would be ok just give her cough syrup... Later that night I had to take her to the ER and she was put on breathing machines and Steriods... So that was a waisted $200...
I'm also tired of fighting with insurance companies filling out tons of paperwork going back and forth to Dr to get med records to send them just to be denied coverage because I have been sick since I was a kid... my poor little girl is denied coverage as well since she has asthma she is considered high risk...
I'm tired of fighting with billing departments that try to double bill me for a visit and I have to go to my bank and get copies of my check I wrote them to prove I paid it... (learned the hard way not to pay with cash anymore always write a check)
But from my short experiences of being on government health care I have nothing but good to say... They make the local doctors step it up a notch and you actually get care when you need it because they are forced to follow government guidelines instead of only doing a procedure based on how much you can pay or how much your insurance can pay...
All that being said since I am working less I can qualify to have my kids covered again but instead I am still self pay as long as I can afford it... Even though I pay my taxes and have earned the right to use the programs available to me I choose to only use them when I am truly in need...
Because right now that is what they are intended for... But I would gladly take advantage of universal care intended for everyone... And even so me and my husband still don't quailfy unless there is an emergency or I get pregnant again (but that's not going to happen if I can help it... LMBO) And I have several issues I'm dealing with now that could use a docs care but it's not life thretening (not yet anyways) so I deal with it best that I can because I just can't justify paying a TON of money to have tests and stuff run with no guarnetee they can help me... (Had all that happen when I was younger in and out of hospitals and such all for nothing... it took Thousands of dollars worth of tests and 10-20 different specialists visits all with a different diagnosis and a new costly medication that didn't help some just made it worse... Thank goodness dad had medical insurance... But I sure can't afford to go through all that again)
And I agree there are many that are abusing the system but those people are going to do that anyways so why not let others like me and my family benefit too! Those who are going to lie to get assistance are already doing it so your money is already going to help them out... There are always going to be deadbeats that sit around all day doing nothing but figuring out ways to work the system... But I know MANY self employed people who can't afford private coverage and we by no means live a fancy life (I too live in a trailer) We just live in a very poor region with very few jobs and even fewer with health care coverage... my poor hubby drives 2.5hour commute each day... So it's not for lack of trying to get a good job there just isn't any around here...
I am all for universal health and here is why...
My husband and I are self employed and due to pre-existing illnesses no insurance company will cover us... So I am self pay... and When I am self pay I get sub-standard care if any care at all! And I tend to pay my bills in full the day of the visit (paying in full is the only way I can get a discount besides most docs will only split the bill into 2 payments anyhow so it's not much help to set up a payment plan)
A while back I had a severely abscessed tooth and called every dentist with in a 100 mile radius and couldn't get in anywhere! I informed them it was an emergency visit and I would pay the bill in full the day of the visit but I was told they refused to see me because I didn't have insurance... So I ordered antibiotics from Mexico and took care of it myself...
A few months later it flared up again, but this time I was pregnant and was on Medicaid for a bit... I called the one of the dentist that I had called before but now since I had Medicaid they made me an appointment I was also told that because I was on Medicaid I didn't have to go on the 6 month waiting list for new patients that Medicaid requires they treat me within 30 days!!!
So due to the government putting regulations on treatment I got in faster when I was going to pay cash I couldn't get in at all and if I had private insurance I would have to wait 6 months for an emergency visit!
If the plan is set up right and they put limits on waiting lists such as in this example then around here the quality of health care will improve...
I have several more experiences just like this and I'm tired of fighting the system... I'm sick of paying outrageous amounts for very little if any care given... I had to pay $200 for a visit when my little girl had bronchitis she has asthma and I was told she would be ok just give her cough syrup... Later that night I had to take her to the ER and she was put on breathing machines and Steriods... So that was a waisted $200...
I'm also tired of fighting with insurance companies filling out tons of paperwork going back and forth to Dr to get med records to send them just to be denied coverage because I have been sick since I was a kid... my poor little girl is denied coverage as well since she has asthma she is considered high risk...
I'm tired of fighting with billing departments that try to double bill me for a visit and I have to go to my bank and get copies of my check I wrote them to prove I paid it... (learned the hard way not to pay with cash anymore always write a check)
But from my short experiences of being on government health care I have nothing but good to say... They make the local doctors step it up a notch and you actually get care when you need it because they are forced to follow government guidelines instead of only doing a procedure based on how much you can pay or how much your insurance can pay...
All that being said since I am working less I can qualify to have my kids covered again but instead I am still self pay as long as I can afford it... Even though I pay my taxes and have earned the right to use the programs available to me I choose to only use them when I am truly in need...
And I agree there are many that are abusing the system but those people are going to do that anyways so why not let others like me and my family benefit too! Those who are going to lie to get assistance are already doing it so your money is already going to help them out... There are always going to be deadbeats that sit around all day doing nothing but figuring out ways to work the system... But I know MANY self employed people who can't afford private coverage and we by no means live a fancy life (I too live in a trailer) We just live in a very poor region with very few jobs and even fewer with health care coverage... my poor hubby drives 2.5hour commute each day... So it's not for lack of trying to get a good job there just isn't any around here...
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I am in Canada...and i am for it....
You may be for it, and have had good experiences, but according to the post that Wifezilla partially posted, a lot of people in Canada including Ontario certainly aren't and are having to go to the "good ole U.S.A." to get the timely care that they need for devastating illnesses, and are then sueing the Canadian goverment. Sounds like the "perfect" system to me!
Just in case others only read what Wifezilla actually copied and pasted and didn't go to the site that the article came from, (The Wall Street Journal) I thought it was important enough to post the entire article.
By NADEEM ESMAIL
President Obama and Congressional Democrats are inching the U.S. toward government-run health insurance. Last week's expansion of Schip -- the State Children's Health Insurance Program -- is a first step. Before proceeding further, here's a suggestion: Look at Canada's experience.
Martin KozlowskiHealth-care resources are not unlimited in any country, even rich ones like Canada and the U.S., and must be rationed either by price or time. When individuals bear no direct responsibility for paying for their care, as in Canada, that care is rationed by waiting.
Canadians often wait months or even years for necessary care. For some, the status quo has become so dire that they have turned to the courts for recourse. Several cases currently before provincial courts provide studies in what Americans could expect from government-run health insurance.
In Ontario, Lindsay McCreith was suffering from headaches and seizures yet faced a four and a half month wait for an MRI scan in January of 2006. Deciding that the wait was untenable, Mr. McCreith did what a lot of Canadians do: He went south, and paid for an MRI scan across the border in Buffalo. The MRI revealed a malignant brain tumor.
Ontario's government system still refused to provide timely treatment, offering instead a months-long wait for surgery. In the end, Mr. McCreith returned to Buffalo and paid for surgery that may have saved his life. He's challenging Ontario's government-run monopoly health-insurance system, claiming it violates the right to life and security of the person guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The Opinion Journal Widget
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Shona Holmes, another Ontario court challenger, endured a similarly harrowing struggle. In March of 2005, Ms. Holmes began losing her vision and experienced headaches, anxiety attacks, extreme fatigue and weight gain. Despite an MRI scan showing a brain tumor, Ms. Holmes was told she would have to wait months to see a specialist. In June, her vision deteriorating rapidly, Ms. Holmes went to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona, where she found that immediate surgery was required to prevent permanent vision loss and potentially death. Again, the government system in Ontario required more appointments and more tests along with more wait times. Ms. Holmes returned to the Mayo Clinic and paid for her surgery.
On the other side of the country in Alberta, Bill Murray waited in pain for more than a year to see a specialist for his arthritic hip. The specialist recommended a "Birmingham" hip resurfacing surgery (a state-of-the-art procedure that gives better results than basic hip replacement) as the best medical option. But government bureaucrats determined that Mr. Murray, who was 57, was "too old" to enjoy the benefits of this procedure and said no. In the end, he was also denied the opportunity to pay for the procedure himself in Alberta. He's heading to court claiming a violation of Charter rights as well.
These constitutional challenges, along with one launched in British Columbia last month, share a common goal: to win Canadians the freedom to spend their own money to protect themselves from the inadequacies of the government health-insurance system.
The cases find their footing in a landmark ruling on Quebec health insurance in 2005. The Supreme Court of Canada found that Canadians suffer physically and psychologically while waiting for treatment in the public health-care system, and that the government monopoly on essential health services imposes a risk of death and irreparable harm. The Supreme Court ruled that Quebec's prohibition on private health insurance violates citizen rights as guaranteed by that province's Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.
The experiences of these Canadians -- along with the untold stories of the 750,794 citizens waiting a median of 17.3 weeks from mandatory general-practitioner referrals to treatment in 2008 -- show how miserable things can get when government is put in charge of managing health insurance.
In the wake of the 2005 ruling, Canada's federal and provincial governments have tried unsuccessfully to fix the long wait times by introducing selective benchmarks and guarantees along with large increases in funding. The benchmarks and the guarantees aren't ambitious: four to eight weeks for radiation therapy; 16 to 26 weeks for cataract surgery; 26 weeks for hip and knee replacements and lower-urgency cardiac bypass surgery.
Canada's system comes at the cost of pain and suffering for patients who find themselves stuck on waiting lists with nowhere to go. Americans can only hope that Barack Obama heeds the lessons that can be learned from Canadian hardships.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123413701032661445.html
Edited to correct a typo on my sentence above.
I am in Canada...and i am for it....
You may be for it, and have had good experiences, but according to the post that Wifezilla partially posted, a lot of people in Canada including Ontario certainly aren't and are having to go to the "good ole U.S.A." to get the timely care that they need for devastating illnesses, and are then sueing the Canadian goverment. Sounds like the "perfect" system to me!
Just in case others only read what Wifezilla actually copied and pasted and didn't go to the site that the article came from, (The Wall Street Journal) I thought it was important enough to post the entire article.
By NADEEM ESMAIL
President Obama and Congressional Democrats are inching the U.S. toward government-run health insurance. Last week's expansion of Schip -- the State Children's Health Insurance Program -- is a first step. Before proceeding further, here's a suggestion: Look at Canada's experience.
Martin KozlowskiHealth-care resources are not unlimited in any country, even rich ones like Canada and the U.S., and must be rationed either by price or time. When individuals bear no direct responsibility for paying for their care, as in Canada, that care is rationed by waiting.
Canadians often wait months or even years for necessary care. For some, the status quo has become so dire that they have turned to the courts for recourse. Several cases currently before provincial courts provide studies in what Americans could expect from government-run health insurance.
In Ontario, Lindsay McCreith was suffering from headaches and seizures yet faced a four and a half month wait for an MRI scan in January of 2006. Deciding that the wait was untenable, Mr. McCreith did what a lot of Canadians do: He went south, and paid for an MRI scan across the border in Buffalo. The MRI revealed a malignant brain tumor.
Ontario's government system still refused to provide timely treatment, offering instead a months-long wait for surgery. In the end, Mr. McCreith returned to Buffalo and paid for surgery that may have saved his life. He's challenging Ontario's government-run monopoly health-insurance system, claiming it violates the right to life and security of the person guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The Opinion Journal Widget
Download Opinion Journal's widget and link to the most important editorials and op-eds of the day from your blog or Web page.
Shona Holmes, another Ontario court challenger, endured a similarly harrowing struggle. In March of 2005, Ms. Holmes began losing her vision and experienced headaches, anxiety attacks, extreme fatigue and weight gain. Despite an MRI scan showing a brain tumor, Ms. Holmes was told she would have to wait months to see a specialist. In June, her vision deteriorating rapidly, Ms. Holmes went to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona, where she found that immediate surgery was required to prevent permanent vision loss and potentially death. Again, the government system in Ontario required more appointments and more tests along with more wait times. Ms. Holmes returned to the Mayo Clinic and paid for her surgery.
On the other side of the country in Alberta, Bill Murray waited in pain for more than a year to see a specialist for his arthritic hip. The specialist recommended a "Birmingham" hip resurfacing surgery (a state-of-the-art procedure that gives better results than basic hip replacement) as the best medical option. But government bureaucrats determined that Mr. Murray, who was 57, was "too old" to enjoy the benefits of this procedure and said no. In the end, he was also denied the opportunity to pay for the procedure himself in Alberta. He's heading to court claiming a violation of Charter rights as well.
These constitutional challenges, along with one launched in British Columbia last month, share a common goal: to win Canadians the freedom to spend their own money to protect themselves from the inadequacies of the government health-insurance system.
The cases find their footing in a landmark ruling on Quebec health insurance in 2005. The Supreme Court of Canada found that Canadians suffer physically and psychologically while waiting for treatment in the public health-care system, and that the government monopoly on essential health services imposes a risk of death and irreparable harm. The Supreme Court ruled that Quebec's prohibition on private health insurance violates citizen rights as guaranteed by that province's Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.
The experiences of these Canadians -- along with the untold stories of the 750,794 citizens waiting a median of 17.3 weeks from mandatory general-practitioner referrals to treatment in 2008 -- show how miserable things can get when government is put in charge of managing health insurance.
In the wake of the 2005 ruling, Canada's federal and provincial governments have tried unsuccessfully to fix the long wait times by introducing selective benchmarks and guarantees along with large increases in funding. The benchmarks and the guarantees aren't ambitious: four to eight weeks for radiation therapy; 16 to 26 weeks for cataract surgery; 26 weeks for hip and knee replacements and lower-urgency cardiac bypass surgery.
Canada's system comes at the cost of pain and suffering for patients who find themselves stuck on waiting lists with nowhere to go. Americans can only hope that Barack Obama heeds the lessons that can be learned from Canadian hardships.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123413701032661445.html
Edited to correct a typo on my sentence above.
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Here is a quote about the definition of Socialism from a socialist:
Socialism
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A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.
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To put it in laymans terms: You work hard for a high grade in school. Your classmate does not study at all for a good grade, and flunks out, but the teacher feels that he is a good kid and deserves the A that you worked so hard for.
This is socialism.
Here is a quote about the definition of Socialism from a socialist:
Socialism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.
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To put it in laymans terms: You work hard for a high grade in school. Your classmate does not study at all for a good grade, and flunks out, but the teacher feels that he is a good kid and deserves the A that you worked so hard for.
This is socialism.
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