To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?

[GardenerGal]

Thanks ddawn. This is a wonderful thread. What would we do without 'net resources like BYC, and the knowledgeable people who contribute? I'd have to pull out my old poultry science texts, which are -ahem- a little out of date when it comes to meds and technology.

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[threehorses]

I figured you did know. It was just almost like a little mental check-off box where I needed to see a check.

I had been told the gentle hit-hard hit method of worming by my livestock vets. I myself had seen cases where horses were wormed and had either the shock or enormous numbers of worms trying to pass. I had heard of at least a couple of cases of blockage. There was one case of chocking in a poster's bird where it was directly after worming for a case of heavy crop worms - and I do wish I could have been able to cross through my computer and do a necropsy to see if it was worms. I'll never know, I suppose.

The worming was firmed up for me after I had a very experienced poultry owner tell me the same - and I remembered it from vet recommendations. It just makes sense. And really it's just a one-time thing.

Oh and worms - don't worry, I do the same. Honestly my last worming was quite overdue for the same reason. "Well they look good - and I'm experienced enough to know when they look good...." It was a bird with lice that made me get off my tush and finally do this "spring's" worming. Mid year.

On the ivermectin pour on, I use 1 drop for a small OE hen sized bantam, 2 drops for an OE male to a regular small bantam, 3 drops for an average bantam or very small commercial hen, 4 drops for an average adult chicken or small large-breed hen, 5 drops for a large large-fowl bird, and 6 drops for giant breeds, a large bird. That's the blue "ivermectin" not any other '-ectin'.

I use a 3 cc syringe with a 25g needle. I of course don't inject, but I find the needle makes a very precise size of drop and allows me to place it better. I hold the syringe horizontally in case the chicken hops up so I don't poke it. Then you just have to find a very naked spot on their skin - between their shoulders or at the back of their neck works best for me. If you get it on any fluff, it will absorb into the fluff at lightening speed and then you don't know if they get it or not. So aim for very bald skin on their main body.

I treat withdrawals just as indicated for cattle. Ivermectin is not at all labeled for chickens, so we don't really know. However since it is used to treat worm infestations in humans - I like to assume that the amounts in eggs are probably safe for humans if not pregnant. However, I don't like the thought of worms being shed into an egg - so I personally withdraw for 2 weeks "just because it's icky" - such a scientific reason.

Levamisole is also a good choice if you choose it. I simply like ivermectin because it's quick, easy, safe, gets externals - that's the kicker for me.

And I'm honored to be able to help. When I needed help, often it was not there. (And when it was, I was so grateful for it that I wanted to be just as helpful as the generous people who helped me!) So it's truly my pleasure. I learn something every day, and intend to keep that going until my last day on earth. And why learn stuff if you can't share it, right?

I'm glad this helped. Please let me know which method you choose, and how you like it.

 

[peachychick]

Good stuff 3horses, thanks a bunch..... keep the info coming for us "novices"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When would you do your 1st worming on a brand new flock etc? In other words we started some chicks in March 09 and after hatching some here and some there etc now have around 75 birds all between 1 week and 4 months old.

 

[threehorses]

I raise a lot of youngsters on wire so that I can keep ages apart until at least 4 months. So usually I worm at 4 months earliest. I like the thought of their systems being parasite free when they're bulking up on nutrition that last 5th month before egg laying.

With my youngsters, I do ivernectin to start as they're not on old ground. If they're on ground, I use wazine first.

New birds, I let them get used to the place first - a month of quarantine. I worm them the last week of quarantine. If they're young like my other birds and I know where they're from, I use ivermectin. If not, I play it safe and use Wazine first, and then ivermectin follow up 2 weeks later.

Then it's usually twice a year with ivermectin.

 

[NotTheMomma]

Best of luck to your flock!

I'm gonna yet again agree with threehorses here. Sounds like she and I both have a barnyard full of animals, and treat as much as our personal limits allow. I've wormed my flock once this Spring, and will again in the Fall. Those two seasons are worming time here for ALL the animals. I do take specimens into my vet for fecals at least once as year. That's a specimen for each type of animal. My cats recently came back positive for tapeworms (no surprise there, it's flea season!), but the dogs were OK. The only animals that get by with skipping a worming here is my horses. For whatever reason, they'll have a few fecals negative for worms, and then a positive show up.


Need to find out what to worm my rabbit with now. Or rather my daughter's rabbit, that I'm sure I'll end up taking care of.

This is our first year with chickens. I had them growing up, but most of the vet care stuff was done by my parents. I only fed, watered, and gathered the eggs.

I've seen the damage worms can do, and how costly it can be to get weight back on an animal that has lost due to the worms. I really don't care to feed worms here either.

Feed is high enough as it is, and every morsel of goodness needs to go for the animal intended.

 

[GardenerGal]

It's funny, but back in my fossil brain, I seem to remember my old poultry science books saying to never try to kill a large worm infestation all at once because it could kill the host. But maybe I just think I remember. Once you get into middle age, it all becomes a blur. ;D Your cogent explanations really hit the nail on the head, though.

Yes, I am guilty of having been complacent because my chooks "look good" and "act normal." Of course, at the first sign of cocci I haul out the Sulmet and treat the flock; at the first sign of mites I powder 'em like a baby. But worms? It's a dirty 5-letter word! lol When I had a horse, she got wormed every 8 weeks whether she had 'em or not! Ditto for the goats.

This morning I gave them the Piperazine in the water. I likely will use Ivermectin this time as I already have a bottle of the "blue Ivermectin" and cc syringes with fine-gauge needles (usually intended for injecting penicillin) in my "farm-pharm collection" and will dose everyone after the 2-week interim. Thank you so much for your dosage info; my bantams vary in size, so there will be different dosages. Yours are excellent guidelines.

After that, I'll be more vigilent so it becomes more of a preventative procedure than a cure, just as I handle cocci and mites/lice, etc. The old addage that "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" is still true.

This has been a really good thread, and I hope others read it -- especially newbs -- because there's a lot of valuable stuff here. Thanks again.


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[GardenerGal]

Yes, I'm getting myself on the ball for worming twice a year. Shame on me for being lax in that area. And I keep waterfowl, too, so all the more reason to keep an eye on the chickens since there is always mud around when you have ducks and geese; who knows what the ducks and geese track into the barn at night!

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[chattychicken]

What about worming in the heat? We've reached 115F here in Phoenix, and I'm wondering if I should wait until its cooler ( couple of months) before worming my chickens?

 

[GardenerGal]

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That's a good question. Maybe threehorses could address it!
My thought is that hot weather will make the chickens drink more water, so if you're treating via drinking water it would possibly affect the size of the dosage they get or the length of time the medicated water is provided.

Side Note: All of my chickens drank plenty of the water with Piperazine-17 during the 24-hour period of treatment (yesterday morning to this morning), and today I found one poop with a smallish worm sticking out of it. Not seeing huge numbers, though. We'll see what comes out when they get Ivermectin in 2 weeks.

 

[threehorses]

Good question! I think it would depend on how badly you need to worm. That's one of the reasons why I like to worm in fall and spring, actually - the temperatures are more normal, and the birds are less stressed as it is. Then there is the water thing to consider.

They shouldn't drink so much of this that they'll overdose. In the water, it has a high safety margin if given as labeled. Unfortunately, unlike what I do with electrolytes (give one batch of water with them - another just plain water) you can't really do that with wormer. So I wouldn't worry about it too much as water-dosages have a built in margin of error safety in them.

Interesting about the one worm. Good thing that's one worm that won't be stealing feed and health, and scarring up the digestive tract! See ya worm. Your buddies will be joining you shortly.