Tolbunt Polish

[crj]

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He looks like he has leg mites to me.

He did. I'm still working on that. I got him that way and I'm treating the girls too.

No, his tale isn't crooked, it's against the fence. He has a really big tail. I have to say, I really love his colors.

 

[Illia]

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Agreed. Right now my Houdan X thing is mainly for size/breast, and it's experimental (makes up of less than 25% of the flock program)

The 5th toe to me will be relatively easy, being that it is dominant for one. The Houdan color though; - The Houdan behind my two crosses was much better than your average hatchery bird, but, no it wasn't super. It was however better than my two Tolbunts. So, we'll see. My main search right now is for a Gold Laced with at least decent lacing but most importantly good type.

 

[Sportsterjeep]

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Really? Because previously in this thread itself, it was discussed for a good while with the vice President of the PBC that what said is the old standard, and in fact the proposal IS to be gold laced. I haven't seen ANY birds yet without lacing.



ETA - If it shouldn't be gold laced, then why are people using Gold Laced to cross out?

If it shouldn't be, they should focus on solid colored birds or red crested reds to eliminate the pattern gene.

Correct, based on the information we now have coming out of Europe they are Gold laced mottleds. The standard listed is an old standard that was written with limited information at the time, we are reworking it. The birds that were first imported were not out of the best specimens and the information that we got at the time suggested we should outcross to Orloffs, however it was found to be the wrong direction to take. Further, the gold lace outcross will work better in the long run whenever a line needs to have new blood added. By the time we got the correct information about this color pattern there was some discussion about renaming the birds that Sportsterjeep is talking about; calling them Harlequins. That discussion had people pretty deeply entrenched on both sides and as far as I know nobody decided to start raising "Harlequins".

I personally wouldn't be against outcrossing to Houdans EXCEPT that finding a line that produces properly mottled birds consistently is going to be even harder than finding a good line of well marked gold laceds. Further you have to worry about the fifth toe. I know a guy who started to experiment with the cross but as far as I know he never saw the experiment through - can't recall if he lost his full blood Tollbunts or if he got rid of the projects to save on feed. First generation birds came out nearly solid black.

Finally, have a look at Tollbunt Wyandottes - another European creation. Although lacing on Wyandottes is different than on Polish you can clearly see (especially in the hens) that it is a mottled gold lace pattern.


Some birds from Europe:
http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/diepenbroek_khaki_014.jpg

I'm very familiar with the fact that the European imports we received here were not from the best lines. That in itself has not helped any breeders here in the US. If what we were originally breeding for is wrong, due to being lost in translation from our Eropean counterparts, then we need to fix this. If we are now finding out that the proposed standard that is posted on the polish club website is not what we should be breeding for, this needs changed. While it takes time to write new standards, and I understand that, there are people working on these that need to be made aware. I have talked to some breeders who were and are working on these, most with the end result being the proposed standard on the website, that would probably like to know what we should be working towards. The type issues aren't that much of a problem as most polish breeders know how they need to build the bird, it's how we need to color it that we rely on the proposed standard for a non accepted color. At minimum the club website needs changed to show that we are working towards lacing and not full blown mottling. You will find that many working with houdans were going for the full mottling effect. As far as a new proposed standard, who is working on it and far far along are they? When I show AOV's, and my tolbunts have been shown, I like to have a printed copy of the proposed standard so that these can be passed along to judges if need be. I find it to be a major setback when the only working copy any of us have to work with isn't even the right copy.
At minimum, the website needs changed to reflect the fact that there is a new standard being written due to now having the correct information, and that we should be working toward a laced bird with a white mottled tip. I would also be interested in seeing a working copy of what we have on the rewritten standard. This at least would give some people working on them the right direction we should be taking. I'm assuming that the only issue that needs rewritten is just the color pattern, on the feather. Everything else that is on the posted proposed standard seems to be a good list to work from.
The one thing that I'm hoping does not change in rewriting is the actual mahogany coloring. Many of the US gold laced polish lack a good mohagany base, it's almost an orange shade. I have culled heavily in the tolbunt program, and yes, I mean culled as in put the bird down. To me, there are already too many "tolbunts" with screwed up genetics, just look at some of the pics posted around. And I have seen too many "pet quality" birds in various breeds get put into a breeding program, the idea is to go forward, not take a step back. I had a very nice gold laced that I was working with since last february that had wonderful type. She lacked the good mohagany base that I wanted and that the tolbunt required. Many of her offspring were culled because of various issues. The ones that did get grown out to an almost adult state had a horrible orange shade instead of mohagany, so they were culled. I also found that for some reason, the gold laced x tolbunt matings produced a chick that did not thrive very well. I tried 2 different gold laced from completely different bloodlines and this seemed to always be prevalent. The last batch with the original gold laced hen did better than the previous hatches, and these were sent to Sonew's husband when we brought him on board. However, in the same token the last two hatches I hatched since the breeders came out of moult were nothing but Tolbunt to Tolbunt breedings and I found these to be the best looking pure chicks I have hatched to date. I almost wonder if I jumped the gun a little and should have waited another six months to start actually hatching from them. I was incubating from point of lay, and started getting fertiles about a month or so later, it took several more months for better fertility and hatch rates. These breeders are now about 2 years old and went to Ultra1Classic in VA, as they were my roo and his hens. Since they have come out of moult, they have had 100% fertility with only pure tolbunts in the breeding pen.
My biggest concern here is that we do need a copy of any new proposed standard, not only for breeding and culling, but also to have for the show floor. Even if this copy is a non finished working copy, it is still better than nothing. I would also urge the club to try and get it completed and voted on so it can be put before the APA to show what we are working towards.

 

[Sportsterjeep]

Illia, some of the old time breeders have had very good results using the houdan. It's something that we are looking at experimenting with also.

ETA: I would also look very closely at the gold/mohagany on any gold laced you are going to add.

 

[Illia]

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Oh and I'm well aware and I think most ANY Polish breeder here knows my smooth Tolbunt is grossly flawed, but, he's all I got besides his brother, which, still - For his flaws his lacing is excellent and his weight is more than his brother and if I were to get rid of one, losing the other to some accident/attack/sickness means no more Tolbunt source. I was lucky enough to get the two boys. The flaws are one reason I'm not line-breeding back to father and also why I'm introducing a little Houdan. I honestly think my smooth must have had a non-Polish behind him or something because I've never seen a true Polish with a comb and lack of cavernous nostrils like him.

Sad thing is, it works like I figured. I sold some Tolbunt x GL chicks last year to someone because even as chicks they didn't pass for good to me, and this fall she asked if I wanted a rooster back (at the time I had no Tolbunt X roosters or unrelated Polish male carrying mottling at the least) so she came by to show him to me, and wow, I see why I sold him even before letting him grow. Poor lacing (mother's side fault - Have two GL hens and only one has really nice lacing, but when it comes to such small numbers, you try what you have. I'm replacing the poorly laced one as soon as I get more GL hens) and huge doubled single comb.

Honestly though - Never had F1 Tolbunt cross health issues here. I've yet to make it to the second generation, will this spring when the weather dries, but in the mean time all the offspring of both my Tolbunts have been very healthy, and my Tolbunts have SUPER fertility. But admittedly, haven't gotten any second generation chicks yet except some accidental out-crosses. Had some Tolbunt x Am's breed more Am's, so far they're growing fast and healthy. But, they're 1/4 Polish.

As for gold lacing in the parents - I know what people mean, I've seen some pale offspring, but so far my two hens have not produced such. They look like typical GL to me, not too pale, their offspring have the same color as both Tolbunt and GL parents. Course, I've only hatched out about 12 total though.

 

[jeremy]

So I have a question.

Why hasn't anyone tried to "recreate" the Tolbunt variety?

Why not get a Mottled Houdan rooster and put him over Gold Laced Polish hens?

A few generations down the road... voila, Tolbunts!

Right?
...aaand, discuss.

 

[OSUman]

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Would take 2 gens to get the pattern.

 

[jeremy]

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Would take 2 gens to get the pattern.

That's what I was thinking, so why not recreate the variety and in doing so create a genetically diverse, vigorous line of Tolbunts?

 

[tay_boe]

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Would take 2 gens to get the pattern.

That's what I was thinking, so why not recreate the variety and in doing so create a genetically diverse, vigorous line of Tolbunts?

Would it be that easy? Seems almost too good to be true.

 

[jeremy]

Well you would have to work on breeding towards the Polish SOP, removing Houdan type, the 5th toe, etc.

But I feel like it shouldn't be that hard.

What do I know though? I don't raise Polish or Houdans, never have, it just seems logical enough that it would work.

I'm waiting on one of the Polish people to pop in and give their opinion.