Topic of the Week - Chicken Myths, True or False?

[speckledhen]

@speckledhen , did you know that the Quik-Stop powder for pets is labeled for use in birds?

Question... Are you saying that it's just benzocaine that's toxic, or all caines?

I never said "all" caines, but the pain killer benzocaine, and I was guessing perhaps lidocaine might also be an issue, used as a pain killer. I have always used the penicillin procaine, never said that was an issue, Kathy. It is not the same thing, in my mind.

I have seen the Kwik-Stop powder has some benzocaine in it and it did puzzle me. I have no idea why unless it's the dose. I don't use it because plain old powdery dirt seems to work just as well thrown on a bleeding comb.

Could have been my rooster died because there is such a high blood volume circulation around comb/wattles and him being in a fight, immediately after it being applied, it got into his system and stopped his respiratory system, but I've always said I had no conclusive proof, just the woman who sent me the message said that her vet told her that benzocaine was toxic and killed their show birds, being applied to open wounds like that. After that story, I was not going to take the chance, however, it's up to everyone else to make their judgement about it.

I want to say I never just say stuff without something to back me up. I felt that a vet's input on the subject was enough to give any chicken keeper pause. I did come across some article about euthanization involving benzocaine, but can't remember the link. So, make your own calls about it. I'm of the "better safe than sorry" crowd.

 

[casportpony]

About two months I had a peacock get injured. He had a larger laceration on his face that wasn't bleeding when I found him, but after hour, for some reason, it started spurting blood.

Never before have I seen a bird bleed like this. Blood was everywhere, floor, ceiling walls... Looked like a scene from a horror movie.

He lost so much blood that he was starting to act lethargic, so my only option at that point was to let him bleed to death, or try to stop the bleeding.

Applying pressure to wound wasn't working, so I found my jar of Kwik-Stop with benzocaine and applied a liberal amount. Blood soaked through, so I applied more. Bleeding finally stopped, and he didn't die.

Kwik-Stop powder saved my peacocks life, that I am sure of.

 

[casportpony]

Forgot to say that's have also used Kwik-Stop with benzocaine with no adverse reactions on the bleeding umbilcuses of a few ducklings, chicks, and peachicks.

 

[speckledhen]

That's good, Kathy, and I'm glad it worked for you without harming the birds, but I am still going to avoid it.

I have some durvet Blood Stop powder here (ingredients are Ferrous Sulfate 7h20 - 84.0%/ Ammonium Alum 5.0% Chloroxylenol 1.0%/ Tannic Acid 1.0%, mostly the same exact ingredients other than pain reliever is absent, no pain reliever in there at all) and it never works any better than just dirt thrown on the comb/wattles after pressure is applied.

As I stated with the other person's story, a veterinarian was the one who told her the the show birds suddenly died from the benzocaine ointment being applied to the open wounds. There was no other reason. They died within minutes of the application to the cuts on their feet. Now, I have no idea why a bird even needs benzocaine in a blood stop powder or for any other reason if there is any chance of harm- it could be that there is only a minute amount of benzocaine in the Kwik Stop, I just don't know. But, it makes no sense to me personally that you would give a bird anything with benzocaine since it is used to euthanize small animals in labs, as well as that at least some vets warn you off of it for use on birds.

Again, use as you see fit. It's up to you. There are alternatives. I would not say that benzocaine sensitivity is a "myth", per se, though there may be a dosage factor or some other thing that makes it not harmful in certain uses on birds.

 

[casportpony]

As I stated with the other person's story, a veterinarian was the one who told her the the show birds suddenly died from the benzocaine ointment being applied to the open wounds.

So is it just benzocaine that this veterinarian said is toxic?

 

[casportpony]

More reading:

Chicken pickin
I am so sorry about your hen.
I have been told that you can never use anything with "cain" in it on any poultry.

The post below was written by someone I trust without exception. It would be nice to see a veterinarian post a counter argument to this post.

Whew, you really scared me for a minute!! I would never want to recommend something like that if it wasn't safe, so I went and looked it up. (I had received that recommendation from a veterinarian, and because of that hadn't verified it before I passed it on.)

I found multiple references for using both lidocaine (a short acting local anesthetic, commonly used as an injection nerve block or as a topical gel, the brand name is Zylocaine) and bupivacaine (a long acting local anesthetic, used as an injection nerve block, and sometimes more creatively) and benzocaine (a medium-length acting local anesthesia, used as a topical gel, the active ingredient in Orogel) in chickens, ducks, raptors, and "most species" of birds. These products have been used for traditional nerve blocks, injected into joints for arthritis, injected around wounds to provide a "ring block," applied as a gel to small wounds before suturing, and I even found a reference to mixing bupivacaine 50:50 with DMSO and applying it topically to chicks after debeaking (must have been a research project, because I don't see the factory farm industry doing that). There were no references specific for turkeys, but there almost never are, for any drugs. I have been told personally by Dr. Bruce Singbeil that any drugs that are established safe in chickens can be used at the same mg/kg dosage in turkeys safely (as long as the low end of the dose range is used because turkeys are larger than chickens, which is a basic principle of any dosing decision). Dr. Singbeil is someone I trust and is the only veterinarian in the country that is board certified as a specialist in Poultry Medicine (as opposed to a specialist in Avian Medicine, or a regular veterinarian who is licensed to practice on all species, but isn't a board certified specialist in anything) that actually has a hospital and treats individual pets, as opposed to all other poultry specialists who work for industry, universities, or public health.

So bottom line, it is safe to use "cain" medications in poultry, as long as it is done carefully. You're not going to get into trouble with topical medications on a prolapse unless you squeeze the whole tube into the oviduct after you've replaced it back inside, then hold the vent closed long enough for too much of the drug to absorb into the bloodstream (it would probably take a very long time). Just applying a smear to what's hanging out, waiting 5 minutes, then working the oviduct back in will give very minimal absorption into the bloodstream immediately, as most will absorb into the tissues. It will take hours for the drug to slowly work its way out of the tissues, giving the body plenty of time to metabolize it. If you were to use injectable local anesthetics, then poultry are somewhat sensitive to them by comparison to other species, on a mg/kg basis, so total injected dose has to be monitored carefully to avoid complications. But that's true for all small animals and humans. The only time it's not an issue is with cattle and horses, which are so large that it's almost impossible to overdose with those drugs. So I can see how many people would believe that "cain" products are dangerous in poultry. Most vets that come to farms are large animal vets. If a farmer were to ask a large animal vet to treat a 5-10 lb chicken, when he's used to treating a 1,000 lb animal without concern for total injected dosage, I could easily see an overdose occurring. That happens a few times and all of a sudden the medication is labelled as dangerous.

Wow, I haven't seen that writeup in a while -- it was posted years ago.

Since I posted that, I have used both lidocaine and bupivicaine in my birds. I had a turkey hen have her entire side skinned when a tom's toenail penetrated skin, then slid. All 4 nails on the left foot caught, and full thickness skin was peeled down her entire left side, like husking an ear of corn, from backbone to keel, leaving an 8 X 10" skinless area, and a huge amount of attached loose skin shriveled up at the bottomline. Unfortunately, she was on the roost by the time I got home and didn't realize that anything had happened until the next morning. At that point, the skin flap could not be reattached, and was catching debris, which would increase infection. It needed to be cut off, but it still had full nerve sensation. I was able to infuse a combination of lidocaine and bupivicaine, then remove it without causing pain. The wound fully healed with appropriate care, and the hen is still with me, without any obvious evidence of her old injury.

Another time a friend had a chicken with bailing twine wrapped around its foot. It wasn't discovered for 1-2 days, and the foot was severely swollen. The twine had cut deeply into the flesh, around and around the leg, right above where the toes attach. I started unwrapping the twine, but eventually it became too painful. I poured some lidocaine into a cup and soaked the wound in it for 10 minutes. She didn't feel a thing after that, and I was able to dig deep into tissue to remove every strand of twine. It took a while, as the foot was essentially paralyzed, but she fully recovered.

"Caine" products, WHEN USED PROPERLY, are not poisonous to birds. Just remember that these are small animals, not cows or horses, so you have to avoid overdosage.

 

[speckledhen]

So is it just benzocaine that this veterinarian said is toxic?

He specifically said it was the benzocaine in the ointment (I do not know the percentage of the benzocaine in the ointment-it was whatever they used in their family for itchy bug bites-so that may be the kicker, Kathy, the dosage) that killed the birds, getting into their bloodstream from the open cuts on their feet.

I really do not want to muck up this thread with one topic, but since I was brought up specifically, I wanted to reiterate that it was not me who said benzocaine was harmful to birds, it was a veterinarian who said it and this BYC member was trying to commiserate with me or make me feel better after my rooster died by telling me her story. I was looking for answers and the ointment was the only thing that was different and immediate to his death. I think my story was so old, that the details of it had been long forgotten by peeps here. I don't want things falsely attributed to me. It was not my own no-question-about-it conclusion-at the time, it was only a hypothesis based on the immediacy of the death right after applying the ointment to his wattles. I did not expect to lose my rooster within minutes. Then, I found out some more and felt it may very well have contributed to his death, but again, no necropsy so it will remain inconclusive.

Even what you quoted above still hints that there could be issues if it gets into the bloodstream:

You're not going to get into trouble with topical medications on a prolapse unless you squeeze the whole tube into the oviduct after you've replaced it back inside, then hold the vent closed long enough for too much of the drug to absorb into the bloodstream (it would probably take a very long time).

So, maybe some folks are using stuff with that ingredient in it and have no problems, but I will not use it on my birds, not after my own experience added to the experience of that other BYC member and the diagnosis by her vet. Why take the chance? To each his own.

Most pain killers in triple antibiotic ointments are pramoxine, which I use on rare occasion if I have none without, no problems. Penicillin Procaine it not the same thing and I do use that. So, on to other topics....

 

[casportpony]

I really do not want to muck up this thread with one topic, but since I was brought up specifically, I wanted to reiterate that it was not me who said benzocaine was harmful to birds, it was a veterinarian who said it and this BYC member was trying to commiserate with me or make me feel better after my rooster died by telling me her story.

So one veterinarian says it's toxic, another two or more say it's not. My problem is that the benzocaine post hast morhped into all "caine" products are toxic, including neosporin w/pramocaine.

 

[speckledhen]

So one veterinarian says it's toxic, another two or more say it's not. My problem is that the benzocaine post hast morhped into all "caine" products are toxic, including neosporin w/pramocaine.

Kathy, is that somehow my fault? I sure didn't start that, LOL! There must be other people disseminating that information without caveats (dosage, maybe?) attached if it "morphed", as you say.

 

[speckledhen]

How about a new myth? Chickens are only motivated by food, that's why they like you. NOT.

I have plenty of hens who show affection, who want nothing more than to be held and cuddled and to be with us. They know we have no food. In fact, we can put food down in front of some of them and they'll turn away to beg to be picked up and held. They are just not as dumb as people seem to think. They are complex, dignified and, even at times, selfless to dying comrades.