Trouble with our own dog

[cobrien]

So sorry for your loss! I have lost one chicken to a loose dog and almost lost one when a friends' dog visited and got out of my back door. What helped me with the guilt was reaffirming my commitment to keep the remaining flock as safe as possible.

If you talked to a trainer that said the dog can't be trained not to kill chickens, I say find a new trainer. It can definitely be done. I agree the shock collars are not cruel if used properly and for certain problems, like this one. Keep in mind that a small amount of discomfort for the dog will help you get the dog to a point where it can have more freedom and therefore a much better quality of life.

My dogs have a strong prey drive but both have been trained not to harm chickens. I can even leave them alone with the chickens when they are free ranging. One of my dogs regularly kills mice, rats, even squirrels and opossums, and chases seagulls and pigeons, but she knows that chickens are off limits. Each of my dogs went to 3 levels of obedience classes, each about 6 weeks long, meeting once per week, in a group. Each class was only $60. I highly recommend this as a starting point to learn training techniques, how to communicate with dogs, and to get professional advice on specific problems.

It will be a lot of work - that's why so many people think it can't be done...because most people don't put in the hard work or they just don't know how to train dogs. Training dogs is not intuitive for most of us, I was no exception even though I grew up with dogs and worked as a vet tech for many years. I learned the techniques from professionals and I really think this is a great way to go. Good luck!

 

[fancbrd4me02]

Ceasar Milan doesn't use shock collars to teach dogs not to go after chickens. He only uses it when the dog is doing something really dangerous and has to be remotely corrected.

 

[kota1369]

Quote:
Exactly! First you need to teach the dog what you you want from him. What you expect from him and the the e-collar is an extention to your leash when used correctly. A remote leash so to speak.
Once you have taught your dog normal commands such as sit, down, ect... then you properly teach your dog that when it is 200 feet away and you say sit or down........... if he does not, you have your remote leash. Correction/ "no down". Same way you would if the dog was 3 feet from you on a leash. Your just using a different tool.
An e-collar gives an electric vibration that depending on the setting will depend on the level of discomfort. The object is not to hurt the dog, the object is go catch his attention and make him "listen" to you and do what you said. I had a Doberman who had his e-collar on, when off leash away from the house. I only have had to bust him on high one time... and he went after a ground hog and was busy throwing it in between his front legs when I told him to "down" and he kept going. The two of them were on a collision course for a 4 lane street. I turned it to high and yelled, "no down" and on the word "no" is when I hit the button. He skidded to a down. He was within about 30 feet of that street. Then I told him to come to me, and used the "tone" button, which is just a good sound on this collar, and I had already taught him that means "come". So, I actually was telling him to come to me twice. When I hit the tone button and said come at the same time. Same as when I said no and gave him a very firm correction. He promptly ran to me and all I did was "tone/Name come" we enjoyed the rest of the day together after that quick little scare. This particular dog, when normally corrected needed the lightest corrections. But, I was not taking chances with a dog who can cover 30' in seconds, that is why I chose the high setting.
This dog had a high level of training and was fun to work with. And just like my currant rottweiler, I could put him in a down at PetSmart and shop for a half hour and find my dog in the same spot, same position. They both like to show off I think.
Does your dog need an e-collar? I can't say. I have not been around her to see what she does and how she acts. But, your getting to listen to many different approaches and the more you learn and work with your dog the more you will be able to advance with the problem.
Good luck to you.

The lady with 4 dogs, 4 city chickens, 2 bunnies and a lizard

 

[chickerdoodle]

Quote:
Oh no, you had to mention his name....

Myself and most other professional (academically) behaviorists are, to put it nicely, not very fond of many of Cesar Milan's methods. He uses "pack mentality" exclusively and dominance for everything which is incorrect and under certain circumstances can even makes the situation worse and downright dangerous--this has been proven over many times. Dogs have more rules than dominance when interacting with each other. Also wolves and dogs do not treat us like one of the pack which is what many old fashioned (and not as effective) trainers relied on and Cesar's methods are the same only just dressed up. Professionals have had to "fix" many of the dogs that were trained "The Cesar Way." He certainly is not all bad. He has reinforced the important of exercise, confidence, and consistency which is wonderful and some of his methods can be helpful or benign. The other side is he doesn't read dog body language as well as he claims in several episodes I have seen. There are more effective and humane collars and halters out there than his. He has great marketing and is a real showman. His TV shows the good responses as if they happen overnight but not all will be lasting as the real issue has not been corrected. There is a good reason there is a caveat "to not do any of these methods without a professional trainer" for his TV shows. For a better read by a truly educated and experienced ( and quite funny) read anything by Dr. Patricia McConnell. I would start with "The Other End of the Leash." Uh, oh, sorry for the off topic rant..I can't help myself when I see his name.

 

[fancbrd4me02]

Quote:
Oh no, you had to mention his name....

Myself and most other professional (academically) behaviorists are, to put it nicely, not very fond of many of Cesar Milan's methods. He uses "pack mentality" exclusively and dominance for everything which is incorrect and under certain circumstances can even makes the situation worse and downright dangerous--this has been proven over many times. Dogs have more rules than dominance when interacting with each other. Also wolves and dogs do not treat us like one of the pack which is what many old fashioned (and not as effective) trainers relied on and Cesar's methods are the same only just dressed up. Professionals have had to "fix" many of the dogs that were trained "The Cesar Way." He certainly is not all bad. He has reinforced the important of exercise, confidence, and consistency which is wonderful and some of his methods can be helpful or benign. The other side is he doesn't read dog body language as well as he claims in several episodes I have seen. There are more effective and humane collars and halters out there than his. He has great marketing and is a real showman. His TV shows the good responses as if they happen overnight but not all will be lasting as the real issue has not been corrected. There is a good reason there is a caveat "to not do any of these methods without a professional trainer" for his TV shows. For a better read by a truly educated and experienced ( and quite funny) read anything by Dr. Patricia McConnell. I would start with "The Other End of the Leash." Uh, oh, sorry for the off topic rant..I can't help myself when I see his name.

I would like to add that it's amazing what editing those shows can do to give you a perception of what happened vs reality. A lot of people have put a lot of Hollywood money into that guys show & career, so don't think for a second it isn't editied to create an image that they want to sell.

 

[janel]

I'm sorry for your loss.
I successfully trained my lab mix not to hurt the chickens. The time I caught him with a chick in his mouth, I dominance rolled him and physically forced him to lay down for several minutes with the chicken on his face, head, and chest (he got a few swats and firm "NO"s, too, that time). I repeated the dominanace roll with a chick/hen standing on him every time after that when he so much as looked at the chicken. When my last chicks hatched, I laid him down on his back and put the chicks on top of him. It is very important that when the dog struggles you do not stop. Wait until he has stopped trying to get up before you let up on him. If you have to chase the dog down after he's tried to go after a chicken, DO NOT STOP until you have caught him and dominanace rolled until he surrenders (stops struggling). My last chicks were in a brooder box that my dog had access to for 6 weeks and I never had an incident. He shares a yard with my hens and pullets and has never harmed a chicken. The key is your dog has to know that you're the boss (and want to please you). Set him up for failure so that you have the opportunity to intervene and let him know what is expected in a controlled situation.
By the way, my dog is happy, confident, and well-adjusted. Firmness and consistency make him feel secure because he knows I'm alpha, contrary to what some well-intended animal lovers might think. I've volunteered at animal shelters for over a decade, fostered hundreds of dogs, taken dog obedience classes, and found the overwhelming consensus among those with experience on their side is "Hail Cesar" (Milan)! I don't know that Cesar would agree with my method (particularly the swatting), but it certainly was effective for me and he's influenced my training style quite a bit.
Shock collars probably wouldn't work because you would have to be there EVERY TIME to deliver the shock within about 2 seconds of the bad behavior. Consistency is key. Getting away with something just once spoils your training efforts and causes stress for the dog because the punishment is unpredictable. Electric fencing around the coop would be more consistent and probably more effective if you want to go that route.
I've also heard (probably a wives tale) that if you tie the chicken carcass around your dogs neck and leave it there until it is very putrified, the dog will not kill another chicken.
On another note, please forgive yourself. Chickens are so prone to predation that even the most careful owners lose one at some point. The suffering Peaches endured is in the past and no longer exists. She's okay now.

 

[Cati]

Quote:
Thanks for your note. I, too, didn't find any sort of peace until I started working on solving the problem so it would never happen again. I am researching training options now and am hopeful. Our dog is very smart and very much wants to please.

 

[Opa]

A hot wire convienced my JRT that she didn't want anything to do with chickens.

 

[Cati]

Quote:
Thanks for your comments. I am reading all this information about the fencing, collars, and training. I think, inadvertently and I suppose intuitively, my husband has been doing some of the things you mention with the dominance roll (the breeder showed him that). This is our first dog so we are by no means on top of dog training. From your post and others we see that it is a long process, which we are happy to take on once we've decided on a route to take. Thanks for your last comment, as well; I do need to forgive myself, and haven't just yet, but I like your point that she is okay now. Clearly, I could never be a farmer (I live in the suburbs)--don't have the pragmatism or stoicism! TGIF

 

[Carpe DiHen]

Hang in there! Your shepherd is going to be an awesome dog! I have owned 5 (one at a time...not a spring chicken). All were good with my cridders. My current shepherd is from all E. German Schutzhund champion lines and he is quit different that American show lines. High drive, but he is the best dog I have ever owned.

At 9mo of age, he ate my hot tube cover, shredded my drip irrigation, ate my lawn chairs... I called him the shredder and he was bruiser too. Split my lip giving me a kiss...I had love bruises all over...

We had many many obedience classes and did some AKC obedience trials. I also did tracking with him. He is so connected to me and my family I can't believe it. There is a saying that "Some breeds (left out the breed so as not to offend) say "What are you going to do for me today", but the shepherds say "What can I do for you today?""

At two years old, he adopted my 5 week old kittens and let them nurse on him. He guards my bunny like a border collie and they sniff noses. He bathes his buddy the Poodle after dinner (excuse me but he humps him too...)

I have never had chickens. They come April 12th and I know I am in for a new challenge. If Dasher was 9mo old, I would be in for a hard ride. He is very high drive even though he is maternal. Having two dogs, one a bird dog, will make the training a challenge. I trust my ability to work with my shepherd the most.


Give yourself a break and give your shepherd some time, she's going to be a joy to own.

We all understand!

Best wishes!