Trying to contain Marek's and protect 6 week and 2 week old chicks

[ReallyACL]

I have been on our property for 8 years and this is the first time I have encounted disease. I have a small flock of hens (5) one rooster and two 4.5 month old cockerels that freerange and share a coup. I recently purchased (2 weeks ago) three blue laced Barnevelders which were and still are isolated one had twisted curled toes which the breeder assured was an incubation/vitamin/worm issue however she had a raspy cough as well and still does as well as leg mites. one of these other chickens is developing twisted toes now even though they have been wormed, treated for leg mite and given oodles of vitamins. I'm quite sure they are infectious and one of my hens from the original flock and my roo have in the past two weeks developed a contracted pupil. It looks very much like I have Marek's and I'm pretty pissed about it. I havnt lost anyone yet but I'm sure it's just a matter of time

What I want to know now is how to protect my unvaccinated chicks, if it might be at all possible. I have moved my main little fock to a new coup about 100 meters from the house and electrified three feet out from their coup fence to keep the horses and alpaca and dogs out of their space. I have cleaned their old coup with bleach and disposed of the bedding via bagging in and putting it in the actual rubbish for collection and that is now empty until I figure out what I can do with it.

My 6 week old chicks are currently in a very large brooder that sits three feet or more off the ground on the back of a trailer and have no contact with the ground at all. and the two week old chicks are still in the house brooder with the door closed to that room and I dont sweep the floor in there around their brooder I vaccuume it.

I have another coup out the back which joins my vegatable garden which is bird netted and this coup hasnt been used in two years and my little original flock have not been in there. I cleaned it when I stopped using it and it has just sat empty. it's fully netted and not even a little bird can get in there. What do you think my chances might be of saving my chicks from this disease if a take the vaccuum in the old coup to give it a dust and then spary it down with bleach then lay down a thick bed inside the coup and allow the chicks to only inhabit that space and enclosed garden?

I'm desperate to protect the chicks, I know there is nothing I can do for my existing little flock other than keep them in the best possible health in the cleanest possible surrounds. the two coups are at minimum 150 meters apart and it's not terribly dusty. It's been a terrible busy hard week with all of this.

Any and all advice and tips I'm greatful for.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi, welcome to BYC!

I sense your frustration... but don't understand what this has to do with Marek's? Oh wait... it's your pupil on one of your boys.

Mareks can come from anywhere... even flocks that have NPIP certification. It is considered by the state poultry vet at UC Davis to be in "EVERY poultry environment". It can be brought it by any wild bird at any time. I never saw it before either... until I did.

Whatever the reason for curled toes, it stinks. These birds aren't displaying symptoms of Mareks and they are contagious it is probably for something else respiratory considering the cough you describe.

I'm not sure vacuuming is any better than sweeping. Maybe a hepa will help but to me they blow things around in the air anyways with their spinning rollers.

Anyways my real experience with Mareks... 1 chick presented with leg paralysis. I removed from the flock and fed for 3 week before I culled a bird who couldn't walk and wasn't going to thrive. Couple weeks later another chick presented with some lameness and I culled immediately. Those were my only two losses to Marek's so far, at least 6 months later and 82 birds. Not a single one of my birds has been vaccinated. And the vaccine essentially ONLY stops the tumors from developing that cause the paralysis...

Sounds like you've got a pretty good set up to create some quarantine. Whether it will change anything for your chicks... I am unsure. Dust isn't the issue, wind is.

Sorry I didn't do too may emoji's, please know my intent is to share information and to learn not to point fingers or be unfriendly.

Incubation... things happen. Worms or vitamins... that "Breeder" needs to check their feeding and parasite regimen and learn how to cull THEIR mistakes.

Sorry, I know I wasn't much help. I DO think your chicks can pull through! I'm hopeful for you.

 

[ReallyACL]

My vacuume is a bit nifty as ithas a heppa AND it has a very very long hose, so I dont have to have the vacuum in the room just the hose bit that sucks up everthing.

So far the chicks are thriving, and s far the rooster and hen with the tiny little pin prick pupil on one side are holding their own. The second new chook that is developing the curled toes in the past day or so is also pulling it up under her, she is limping on it and when she steps it almost looks like she is unsure where the ground is she kind of sweeps in through the air a few times before she put's in to the ground until she gets moving again and then the toes curl and she limps. It does look a bit neruological to me.

I just dont understand. I'm in the middle of the damn forest, no one has chickens for miles and the wild birds here are all very territorial and dont migrate in Victoria Australia like they do in snowy countries, even the ducks are permanent fixtures all year round, not that they hang with the chooks in any case, they prefer the dam.

Nevertheless, I have this problem now and I'll just have to deal with it I suppose and keep the flocks very seperate and hope they are tough little barnyard mixtures. I'm not sure what to do about the three new hens, one looks as fit and healthy as anything, I'm thinking I should just knock the other two on the head and send them to the vet for a necropsy.. get the results and publish the damn breeder, who I have notified yet noticed this week is still selling birds left and right. I could never let a bird off my property now I'm aware I have a problem, I know too well how some people love their birds the same as a cat or do.

Thanks for your hope, I'm hopefull too, but sad about it all.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

The second new chook that is developing the curled toes in the past day or so is also pulling it up under her, she is limping on it

Ah.. When I read this, I initially thought I've never seen curled toes "develop". But I decided to look into how long it takes for Marek's to present.. and it was at least 3 weeks from time of exposure but could be a lot longer than that. And since you've been doing vitamins, it would be an indicator that the original possible malnourished birds shouldn't be getting worse. So I'm thinking... maybe you are actually seeing the development take place that passes most of us by until we notice the limping.

What I wonder is how old are those Barnevelders? If the breeder hadn't seen it before.. they might not have recognized anything being symptoms of Marek's. Especially if they hatched with bent toes... which I have done after a power outage and major temp fluctuation during incubation when I wasn't home.

I like to try and give people the benefit of the doubt and approach them gently. I get a lot farther that way. But their response will impact my future actions.

the wild birds here are all very territorial and dont migrate

All though I totally get this... their territories do usually overlap some (and sometimes battles commence). So with enough overlapping along the way, I would think things can travel pretty far. That being said, most birds can fly pretty far to.. and even non migrating birds have very wide hunting area. A hawk can see it's prey a mile away. And I don't know if Eagles are on your list.. but I do think the information gleaned can correlate to a few other species, since most fledglings do leave the nest in pursuit of their own live's . Reading this article.. it says that fledglings leave the nest and usually establish their own territory within 250 MILES of their hatching nest site... And they don't fly over the road, so what might take you an hour to drive to may be only 10 minutes via the air...
https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/Region_5/NWRS/Central_Zone/Montezuma/EagleFacts.pdf

Anyways... I'm not defending the breeder at all! Your suspicion may very well be correct. And anyone with any concern for others well being would definitely slow their roll while they assessed their stock before spreading to everyone, once you reported your concern whether they thought it was true or not. I always ask to have ANY concern reported to me, because I cannot fix what I don't know. But then for me my word and reputation is all I have. Unfortunately there are those with no scruples who worship the all mighty $.

Thing is... I am discussing possibilities... partly as a means of diagnosis also as fact finding to where it may have come from, if that is indeed the issue (for your peace of mind). Awesome that you plan to do necropsy! It's the only way to know for sure.

OK so one last thought... You said it's been 2 weeks since you brought those birds home and your boy has developed a pinpoint pupil already. The Marek's info I see says it takes 3 weeks to present any symptoms. Is it possible that your boy got injured?

How old is your original flock and where did those two cockerels come from? Or how long have you had them? To me, even though they are free range it will only be a matter of time before the boys affections outweigh the female population.

If those bent toes are the side effect of poor nutrition from hatch... even though you are doing everything you can, it wouldn't help if it is something internal genetically wrong. Like intestinal issues not related to parasites. Or sometimes (in the case of Coccidia), it can actually damage the intestinal lining, cause necrosis and inability to function correctly at that portion any more.

Even though your 6 week old chicks are "off the ground" (to me it won't have much baring if another bird land on their enclosure and preens).. does you original flock have access to that area? Where did you get the 2 new sets of chicks from? I understand that you have an issue and have to deal with it regardless of where it came from. But I also hate to place blame where it may not be due and allow another possibility to just slip by.

Anyways, I hope this is a case of mistaken disease identity. And I hope all your birds continue to thrive for a very long time. Marek's isn't always a death sentence. Some strains are much worse than others.

Yes many people do love their birds the same as a dog or cat. You seem to be a fairly awesome and caring person... a welcome edition to this wonderful and caring community!

Can I ask one more thing? If you are treating for scaly leg mite, are there others that you are having to treat for as well? Like lice or body mites? Sounds like them Barnevelders were in pretty bad condition.

Do you guys have any sort of testing law for certain diseases or laws governing poultry sells the way we do here? It's mostly to protect the food chain, and since all industry birds are vaccinated and it's considered to be in every "poultry" (whatever that means) environment... is why it isn't considered (by the government at least) to be a threat to out national (food) security.

I would use text or email communication instead of verbal.. that way you have proof that you reported it and your side of the story should it ever come into play. If you have a department of agriculture.. they may have some useful information for you.

Hang in there... I know these things are exhausting. And our birds may never know what we do for them... but we know. And it feels good in our hearts to know we did our very best every single day!

 

[Wyorp Rock]

small flock of hens (5) one rooster and two 4.5 month old cockerels

I recently purchased (2 weeks ago) three blue laced Barnevelders which were and still are isolated one had twisted curled toes which the breeder assured was an incubation/vitamin/worm issue however she had a raspy cough as well and still does as well as leg mites. one of these other chickens is developing twisted toes now even though they have been wormed, treated for leg mite and given oodles of vitamins.

I'm quite sure they are infectious and one of my hens from the original flock and my roo have in the past two weeks developed a contracted pupil. It looks very much like I have Marek's and I'm pretty pissed about it. I havnt lost anyone yet but I'm sure it's just a matter of time

What I want to know now is how to protect my unvaccinated chicks, if it might be at all possible.

I have cleaned their old coup with bleach and disposed of the bedding

My 6 week old chicks are currently in a very large brooder that sits three feet or more off the ground on the back of a trailer and have no contact with the ground at all. and the two week old chicks are still in the house brooder with the door closed to that room and I dont sweep the floor in there around their brooder I vaccuume it.

A location in your profile will be most helpful. If you are in the US, it would be a good idea to send a couple of birds to your state lab for testing. This information will let you know what you are dealing with and allow you to move forward.

I recommend that you read this in it's entirety http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq
Lot of very good information from a member that has researched Marek's because she has it in her flock. Cleaning and vaccuming will not hurt and may help reduce the dust. You may want to look into using Virkon S or Oxine for your cleaning.

Photos of the eyes, the chickens with the curled toes, etc. may be helpful.

You mention they are developing curled toes, a cough, they have scaly leg mites and a raspy cough? None of these sound like symptoms of Marek's. How old were these birds when you got them?
Depending on the age, even with vitamin B therapy, curled toes may not ever be corrected. Scaly leg mites and worms are treatable, if you'd like some help with treatment options, let us know - there is a wealth of info here on BYC and the web. Raspy cough, would indicate some type of respiratory illness - if symptoms persist, then investigating that further would be in order. Most RI are contagious and make birds carriers for life.

Get some testing to find out more. Sometimes it may be better to cull sick birds to help prevent or lessen the spread of illness.

As for preventing the spread of illness to your chicks, if you have a contagious illness, then there is not a lot you can do, cull the ones that develop symptoms and keep the ones that thrive. Even vaccinated chicks can develop infection from the Marek's virus, the vaccine only prevents the formation of tumors.

 

[peeper89]

can u take new chicks back to breeder?

 

[ReallyACL]

Ah.. When I read this, I initially thought I've never seen curled toes "develop". But I decided to look into how long it takes for Marek's to present.. and it was at least 3 weeks from time of exposure but could be a lot longer than that. And since you've been doing vitamins, it would be an indicator that the original possible malnourished birds shouldn't be getting worse. So I'm thinking... maybe you are actually seeing the development take place that passes most of us by until we notice the limping.

What I wonder is how old are those Barnevelders? If the breeder hadn't seen it before.. they might not have recognized anything being symptoms of Marek's. Especially if they hatched with bent toes... which I have done after a power outage and major temp fluctuation during incubation when I wasn't home.

I like to try and give people the benefit of the doubt and approach them gently. I get a lot farther that way. But their response will impact my future actions.



All though I totally get this... their territories do usually overlap some (and sometimes battles commence). So with enough overlapping along the way, I would think things can travel pretty far. That being said, most birds can fly pretty far to.. and even non migrating birds have very wide hunting area. A hawk can see it's prey a mile away. And I don't know if Eagles are on your list.. but I do think the information gleaned can correlate to a few other species, since most fledglings do leave the nest in pursuit of their own live's . Reading this article.. it says that fledglings leave the nest and usually establish their own territory within 250 MILES of their hatching nest site... And they don't fly over the road, so what might take you an hour to drive to may be only 10 minutes via the air...
https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/Region_5/NWRS/Central_Zone/Montezuma/EagleFacts.pdf

Anyways... I'm not defending the breeder at all! Your suspicion may very well be correct. And anyone with any concern for others well being would definitely slow their roll while they assessed their stock before spreading to everyone, once you reported your concern whether they thought it was true or not. I always ask to have ANY concern reported to me, because I cannot fix what I don't know. But then for me my word and reputation is all I have. Unfortunately there are those with no scruples who worship the all mighty $.

Thing is... I am discussing possibilities... partly as a means of diagnosis also as fact finding to where it may have come from, if that is indeed the issue (for your peace of mind). Awesome that you plan to do necropsy! It's the only way to know for sure.

OK so one last thought... You said it's been 2 weeks since you brought those birds home and your boy has developed a pinpoint pupil already. The Marek's info I see says it takes 3 weeks to present any symptoms. Is it possible that your boy got injured?

How old is your original flock and where did those two cockerels come from? Or how long have you had them? To me, even though they are free range it will only be a matter of time before the boys affections outweigh the female population.

If those bent toes are the side effect of poor nutrition from hatch... even though you are doing everything you can, it wouldn't help if it is something internal genetically wrong. Like intestinal issues not related to parasites. Or sometimes (in the case of Coccidia), it can actually damage the intestinal lining, cause necrosis and inability to function correctly at that portion any more.

Even though your 6 week old chicks are "off the ground" (to me it won't have much baring if another bird land on their enclosure and preens).. does you original flock have access to that area? Where did you get the 2 new sets of chicks from? I understand that you have an issue and have to deal with it regardless of where it came from. But I also hate to place blame where it may not be due and allow another possibility to just slip by.

Anyways, I hope this is a case of mistaken disease identity. And I hope all your birds continue to thrive for a very long time. Marek's isn't always a death sentence. Some strains are much worse than others.

Yes many people do love their birds the same as a dog or cat. You seem to be a fairly awesome and caring person... a welcome edition to this wonderful and caring community!

Can I ask one more thing? If you are treating for scaly leg mite, are there others that you are having to treat for as well? Like lice or body mites? Sounds like them Barnevelders were in pretty bad condition.

Do you guys have any sort of testing law for certain diseases or laws governing poultry sells the way we do here? It's mostly to protect the food chain, and since all industry birds are vaccinated and it's considered to be in every "poultry" (whatever that means) environment... is why it isn't considered (by the government at least) to be a threat to out national (food) security.

I would use text or email communication instead of verbal.. that way you have proof that you reported it and your side of the story should it ever come into play. If you have a department of agriculture.. they may have some useful information for you.

Hang in there... I know these things are exhausting. And our birds may never know what we do for them... but we know. And it feels good in our hearts to know we did our very best every single day!

Goodness, huge and helpful reply, thank you.

With the curled toes I was told which I messaged the breeder about the following day, and also told them the same han coughed on the way home and is still coughing and even today is still coughing. I was told "the hen is just stressed but sorry about the toes I missed that." After a week I contacted the breeder to inform them the second hen is developing curled toes even though they had been wormed and giving vitamins and I'm still giving them vitamins as I think they need all the help they can get. It was at that point of telling the breeder about the second hen that I was hoping I might get some answers as there must surely be hen in her flock showing the same symptoms and the breeder must know whats going on. I suppose I was hoping for a little transparency. But instead I was told I better bring the hens back. Aside it being a 160 km round trip, I will need to know whats going on with these hens, so them going back is just not an option. No lice, I have checked, their combs are beautifully read, though the sickest one seems puffy over all her comb and wattle area including around her eyes, but her eyes are clean. Even though the other two dont have leg mite I'm treating them as they were all in close contact. The pullet is on her own now as she seems to be the only one with nothing the matter with her (yet, fingers crossed).

Apparently two hens are two years old, but they may well be older, one is a pullet, and she laid her first tiny egg yesterday and a slightly larger one today, so I'm certain she is a pullet.

Of course it's possible my Roo has simply his his head, and I suppose it's possible my old hen at her age could have a brain tumour but both of them together might be a stretch. My vet informed me occular symptoms can appear in as little as 4 days after exposure. I had the new hens Isolated, but perhaps not isolated enough and I've no one to blame my myself for that.

The cockerels were eggs, and all my chicks I have hatched myself. They cannot have contact with the adult birds, we're on 27 acres, the hens are out with the alpaca, the chicks are in the yard by the house so I could run their heat lamp. My original flock is over a year old, it was the motivation behind hatching eggs, I have one chook that wandered in out of the bush 3 years ago and it turned out she is an easter egger, she's a very large hen and still lay's every single day with only a few weeks off in winter. I really want some of her offspring.. This girl was the motivation behind the two cockerels, well, okay, I would have prefered hens, but I was lucky to get two and unlucky they both grew into boys my second hatch attempt was even more dismal at 50 percent, but the third time was a charm at almost 90 percent.

Of course wild birds cant be entirely ruled out, but given the Magpies rule the roost here because they do like feed scraps, especially the horses feed, they are long long term residents and very territorial, they do have a good disposition for keeping the raptors away also, magpies are brutal. The only bird I could blame might be the sulfure crested cockies, they dont come to the ground but they pass through in numbers and I know they range hundreds of kms, and tend to follow the same paths year after year for their 100 odd years of life.

I believe there is only one disease even a backyard chicken keep has to report and thats Newcastle disease, mareks is only compulsory to report if you are a commercial producer.

I'm only communicating with the breeder in text format, though I was called once and then a second time, I didnt take the second call. I think me letting them know I didnt think the bird would make it and that I would be taking the hen for a necropsy might have been a problem as that is what triggered the second phone call, but I didnt not recieve a message in response and still havnt.

I know not all birds die of most diseases that are possible, I suppose I'm just extra concerned as my chicks are not vaccinated, the nature of the vaccine and that is has to be kept in nitrogen does not make it readily available to backyard breeders.
Here's to hoping it's all good in the end.

 

[ReallyACL]

can u take new chicks back to breeder?

No, I need their body.

 

[ReallyACL]

can u take new chicks back to breeder?

No, I need their body.

 

[ReallyACL]

A location in your profile will be most helpful. If you are in the US, it would be a good idea to send a couple of birds to your state lab for testing. This information will let you know what you are dealing with and allow you to move forward.

I recommend that you read this in it's entirety http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq
Lot of very good information from a member that has researched Marek's because she has it in her flock. Cleaning and vaccuming will not hurt and may help reduce the dust. You may want to look into using Virkon S or Oxine for your cleaning.

Photos of the eyes, the chickens with the curled toes, etc. may be helpful.

You mention they are developing curled toes, a cough, they have scaly leg mites and a raspy cough? None of these sound like symptoms of Marek's. How old were these birds when you got them?
Depending on the age, even with vitamin B therapy, curled toes may not ever be corrected. Scaly leg mites and worms are treatable, if you'd like some help with treatment options, let us know - there is a wealth of info here on BYC and the web. Raspy cough, would indicate some type of respiratory illness - if symptoms persist, then investigating that further would be in order. Most RI are contagious and make birds carriers for life.

Get some testing to find out more. Sometimes it may be better to cull sick birds to help prevent or lessen the spread of illness.

As for preventing the spread of illness to your chicks, if you have a contagious illness, then there is not a lot you can do, cull the ones that develop symptoms and keep the ones that thrive. Even vaccinated chicks can develop infection from the Marek's virus, the vaccine only prevents the formation of tumors.

Sorry, I'm in southern Australia. I have read about Virkon S and Oxine I may have to ask my vet how to get it or something like it, we dont have a great deal available retail here in the way of medications or disinfectants, most everything requires a visit to the vet.

two hens are 2 years old, one is a pullet.

After the antibiotics this chicken had for the cough the vet is certain she is immune suppressed as they didnt touch it and they should have. My vet tends to work in a manner of hit it hard, so hard it could kill the bird because the alternative is a resistant bug. A clapped out immune system can be a side affect of surviving mareks and relapsing from time to time. As are the curled toes apparently. I would think I will find out for sure more sooner than latter, but I'll give this girl a little while longer to see if she can muster up something to improve.

I suppose I've had a good run with my birds, being isolated in the forest was probably a good buffer, 9 years incident free, I'll just have to adjust. I'm already planing on the new coup on land the chickens havent covered. I'll not get more birds if it turns out I have the problem I think I have untill they are all gone. Then I'll start fresh with eggs in the new location. I will miss chooks at the front door on the weekends, it might well be a long long time before that space can be taken up again.