Trying to contain Marek's and protect 6 week and 2 week old chicks

[EggSighted4Life]

I don't think I shared this tool yet. You put in the symptoms and it give you ALL the possibilities and then you have to narrow down what makes the most sense to you...
http://www.poultrydvm.com/symptoms

My vet informed me occular symptoms can appear in as little as 4 days after exposure.

Valuable information! I will have to look into it (just because that's how I am) and confirm.

I was told "the hen is just stressed but sorry about the toes I missed that."

Only because of my recent hatching experience where I didn't discover chick toes were curled until a good maybe 4-5 days after hatch... would I believe it's possible to miss curled toes. But on a hen... I don't think I could miss that. Now my curled toes on 3 chicks I TOTALLY believe to be incubation related. I do NOT have any chickens with curled toes and worked hard to secure my breeding stock. I also feed 20% protein formulated ration with all the vitamins and minerals to meet their needs and I don't diminish that with low nutrient treats so NO reason for me to believe it was nutrition related. It was my first time seeing it. And during their incubation I had a power outage while I wasn't home that lasted 5 or 6 hours I think. Temperature was 78 degrees when power returned, I was surprised anything hatched. I had ALL those chicks pre sold, at first I thought it was missing toes on the Silkies.. and the buyer said they didn't care and would still take them. I decided however that my word and the quality of my birds (despite it being a hobby only) are very important to me. Word of mouth is everything. So I said sorry I can't let them go but will run another hatch. And that person has already been a repeat customer for 2 hatches with indicators that some of her coworkers may also be interested! Most people drive not less than 90 minutes each way, and usually reply with texted pics of their new birds with their families. It's a very rewarding feeling. But I'm an over detailed person (as I guess you're probably sensing already ), and I believe in full disclosure. I do realize that my hens or rooster could be throwing the bent toes like a hidden fault that I would have to do test mating to find out who. So far no repeat of bent toes though.

Yes a move can be stressful and induce symptoms to appear that may not have been noticed (or were hidden) previously. One family traveled 5 hours each way and stayed in a motel, for some more grown hatchery birds that I had as their daughter had seen eating eggs of mine for sell and wanted the "pink" layer. (pinkish compared to other browns). None of their birds (12) despite the 5 hour journey had issues. But I do realize that ALL are individuals and some will fail much easier than others. But instantly after being put in your car?? That birds was stressed because her original keeper is having issues SOMEWHERE. I don't see how something like that could have been missed with only 3 birds being present and presumably caught and passed into a kennel of some sort. I inspect all my birds for oddities and parasites (plus a spray of permethrin for good measure) before they go to new homes. But not everybody's brain processes the way mine does. I even had one person refuse to let me spray when I had specifically seen something crawling in the birds and said they would treat with DE. Now I treat before they show up and just disclose what I treated with. That way I know nothing will be allowed to grow out of control from my house due to someone else's inexperience. I know a LOT of people don't quarantine, so I try my best to protect their flocks as well. One note regarding "I don't know how they could miss that" ... There are plenty of things that have happened to others which I thought they must be doing something wrong, until it happened to me! One example.. excessive broody's I thought was caused by someone not collecting eggs. Turns out I collect eggs everyday and still have a few excessive broody's. Who knew (back then) that it's hormonal and not relevant to egg clutch size. Some will brood on imaginary eggs!

Antibiotics won't do anything for a cough if it's viral. But it's good that your vet doesn't want to develop super bugs. You are right to treat all of them, even if you don't see them pests. Sounds like you have a very good head on your shoulders! Someone I would be proud to call friend.

the nature of the vaccine and that is has to be kept in nitrogen does not make it readily available to backyard breeders.

We can purchase Marek's vaccine at the feed stores here. But the bottle (or whatever it is) comes with like 1000 doses. Which most back yarders will never use, so I have seen it recommended for people to consider going in on it with other locals. I don't know the actual cost though. I also don't know anything about storage if that one but I do know when purchasing some dog vaccines that require refrigeration that I always by from somewhere reputable that I believe it was stored properly during transport also.

I suppose I was hoping for a little transparency. But instead I was told I better bring the hens back.

That would have been nice from the beginning before you drove all that way, I'm sure spent $, and already had your land/flock exposed (I know you quarantined as much as possible). Can't blame them for not wanting tests that might show something wrong with their flock... and maybe even required to be reported to officials, whether or not they get blasted in the public eye, real consequences could be scary to their future.

Wow Easter Eggers don't usually lay that prolifically. She sounds amazing and I want some of her offspring too! Poor hatches are often boys that survive in my experience. Glad your next ones went better.

Is there any way you can post pics of the curled toes so I can see how it's may be different from what I have seen in some hatch-lings? Thank you for time and sharing. In addition to things that get learned along the way, it also gives an opportunity to consider what my actions will be if I face it in the future.

 

[ReallyACL]

I don't think I shared this tool yet. You put in the symptoms and it give you ALL the possibilities and then you have to narrow down what makes the most sense to you...
http://www.poultrydvm.com/symptoms


Valuable information! I will have to look into it (just because that's how I am) and confirm.


Only because of my recent hatching experience where I didn't discover chick toes were curled until a good maybe 4-5 days after hatch... would I believe it's possible to miss curled toes. But on a hen... I don't think I could miss that. Now my curled toes on 3 chicks I TOTALLY believe to be incubation related. I do NOT have any chickens with curled toes and worked hard to secure my breeding stock. I also feed 20% protein formulated ration with all the vitamins and minerals to meet their needs and I don't diminish that with low nutrient treats so NO reason for me to believe it was nutrition related. It was my first time seeing it. And during their incubation I had a power outage while I wasn't home that lasted 5 or 6 hours I think. Temperature was 78 degrees when power returned, I was surprised anything hatched. I had ALL those chicks pre sold, at first I thought it was missing toes on the Silkies.. and the buyer said they didn't care and would still take them. I decided however that my word and the quality of my birds (despite it being a hobby only) are very important to me. Word of mouth is everything. So I said sorry I can't let them go but will run another hatch. And that person has already been a repeat customer for 2 hatches with indicators that some of her coworkers may also be interested! Most people drive not less than 90 minutes each way, and usually reply with texted pics of their new birds with their families. It's a very rewarding feeling. But I'm an over detailed person (as I guess you're probably sensing already ), and I believe in full disclosure. I do realize that my hens or rooster could be throwing the bent toes like a hidden fault that I would have to do test mating to find out who. So far no repeat of bent toes though.

Yes a move can be stressful and induce symptoms to appear that may not have been noticed (or were hidden) previously. One family traveled 5 hours each way and stayed in a motel, for some more grown hatchery birds that I had as their daughter had seen eating eggs of mine for sell and wanted the "pink" layer. (pinkish compared to other browns). None of their birds (12) despite the 5 hour journey had issues. But I do realize that ALL are individuals and some will fail much easier than others. But instantly after being put in your car?? That birds was stressed because her original keeper is having issues SOMEWHERE. I don't see how something like that could have been missed with only 3 birds being present and presumably caught and passed into a kennel of some sort. I inspect all my birds for oddities and parasites (plus a spray of permethrin for good measure) before they go to new homes. But not everybody's brain processes the way mine does. I even had one person refuse to let me spray when I had specifically seen something crawling in the birds and said they would treat with DE. Now I treat before they show up and just disclose what I treated with. That way I know nothing will be allowed to grow out of control from my house due to someone else's inexperience. I know a LOT of people don't quarantine, so I try my best to protect their flocks as well. One note regarding "I don't know how they could miss that" ... There are plenty of things that have happened to others which I thought they must be doing something wrong, until it happened to me! One example.. excessive broody's I thought was caused by someone not collecting eggs. Turns out I collect eggs everyday and still have a few excessive broody's. Who knew (back then) that it's hormonal and not relevant to egg clutch size. Some will brood on imaginary eggs!

Antibiotics won't do anything for a cough if it's viral. But it's good that your vet doesn't want to develop super bugs. You are right to treat all of them, even if you don't see them pests. Sounds like you have a very good head on your shoulders! Someone I would be proud to call friend.


We can purchase Marek's vaccine at the feed stores here. But the bottle (or whatever it is) comes with like 1000 doses. Which most back yarders will never use, so I have seen it recommended for people to consider going in on it with other locals. I don't know the actual cost though. I also don't know anything about storage if that one but I do know when purchasing some dog vaccines that require refrigeration that I always by from somewhere reputable that I believe it was stored properly during transport also.


That would have been nice from the beginning before you drove all that way, I'm sure spent $, and already had your land/flock exposed (I know you quarantined as much as possible). Can't blame them for not wanting tests that might show something wrong with their flock... and maybe even required to be reported to officials, whether or not they get blasted in the public eye, real consequences could be scary to their future.

Wow Easter Eggers don't usually lay that prolifically. She sounds amazing and I want some of her offspring too! Poor hatches are often boys that survive in my experience. Glad your next ones went better.

Is there any way you can post pics of the curled toes so I can see how it's may be different from what I have seen in some hatch-lings? Thank you for time and sharing. In addition to things that get learned along the way, it also gives an opportunity to consider what my actions will be if I face it in the future.

I'll try to get some pics after work today.

You might be right about poor hatches mostly being roos, these babes are coming up 7 weeks and I swear I heard one trying to crow this morning.

There is no way I would out this breeder in the pubic eye, but should I find out this hen is a significant bio hazard I will send the breeder a copy of the findings and I will warn them that should I see further sales without any disclosure I will contact individual buyers to give them the heads up. With over a few hundred birds sharing space there is no way it could be contained on that breeders property. The breeder commented while I was there that there were birds in pens that shouldnt have been there, the pen fences were not high enough they couldnt fly over them.

 

[Kiki]

How are all of the birds, mentioned here, doing today?

 

[rebrascora]

Yes, I am just reading this thread for the first time and wondering about the outcome. As someone with Marek's in their flock, I just want to say that it is not always as devastating as the stuff you read.
I was very interested to read your comment about ocular Marek's symptoms displaying so early after infection. I too was not aware of this. I am also very impressed that your vet is so knowledgeable about a chicken disease like Marek's. I have still not seen ocular symptoms in my birds but I am constantly on the look out for them. The curled toes usually results in them walking on their knuckles but hock walking is equally common.
I would say that your flock dynamic will lend itself to stress and stress will trigger Marek's outbreaks. I appreciate you free range but there will still be tensions in a flock with that many male hormones surging and it has been one of the most notable triggers for outbreaks in my experience. Culling adolescent males from the flock before their hormones kick in is a good management strategy with a Marek's flock, as is anything that reduces stress..... one of the reasons I believe broody reared chicks fare better than artificially, if the broody remains in the flock, because there are no integration stresses that can trigger an outbreak.

Anyway, please update us with the current status if you are able.... we can all learn from these situations as well as perhaps offer some advice or support.

Best wishes

Barbara

 

[ReallyACL]

How are all of the birds, mentioned here, doing today?

All the babies are fine, of the old hens a fox got one by the house so that leaves 5 left. One is really showing her age and had a massive mault, one is surely so old now she wont be around too much longer and the three old productions are going into their third year. Containing it to those old birds has just been a matter of logistics and foot baths. I use virkon in several spray bottles as well, I'm a bit ott cleaning stuff, burning stuff and about buckets and what not. But I think I have managed to prevent any of the young chicks from becoming infected, they are all doing well in their respective zones.

 

[Kiki]

All the babies are fine, of the old hens a fox got one by the house so that leaves 5 left. One is really showing her age and had a massive mault, one is surely so old now she wont be around too much longer and the three old productions are going into their third year. Containing it to those old birds has just been a matter of logistics and foot baths. I use virkon in several spray bottles as well, I'm a bit ott cleaning stuff, burning stuff and about buckets and what not. But I think I have managed to prevent any of the young chicks from becoming infected, they are all doing well in their respective zones.

Thank you!


So you are still thinking that the older birds have Marek's and lived through it?

Did you even have a necropsy performed?

 

[ReallyACL]

Thank you!


So you are still thinking that the older birds have Marek's and lived through it?

Did you even have a necropsy performed?

Only one was symptomatic, she is now blind in one eye and it remains a different color. None of the others have ever shown symptoms, but I have to assume they were exposed and so they are carriers. Once they are all no longer around I'll rest their space a full year, and virkon spray everything I possibly can after a ocd scrub down. I hope by then the cycle will be broken. I'm just pleased I managed to spare the chicks. I only take on hatching eggs and dunk them in 3 percent peroxide before incubation, I believe it works like a charm in reducing transmitable disease.

When I hatch I raise each brood isolated just incase anything shows up as they grow, so far so good. I've only lost one chick and that was because I had a power outage and when their lamp came back on they paniced, it hit it's head and ruiedit's hip and knee, sadly after a week I had to cull the little guy, I was shattered, he was a rare breed from imported lines I really loved his personality. I did an exam after death, he would never have recovered to be able to live comfortable, his leg was a mess.

 

[ReallyACL]

Thank you!


So you are still thinking that the older birds have Marek's and lived through it?

Did you even have a necropsy performed?

I always get to the bottom of whats going on. I had a big scare a long time ago that could have wiped out every bird I have and take years to erradicate, mareks is a walk in the park compared to some virus and bacteria. Thankfully the bird of concern was still in quarantine before making the decision to cull. The vet had advised it after 25 days of different antibiotics, the vet was also keen to know what was going on as well. Damn there are some nasty bugs in some peoples flocks!! I learnt a huge lesson from that, I'll never take an adult bird on again.

 

[Kiki]

I always get to the bottom of whats going on. I had a big scare a long time ago that could have wiped out every bird I have and take years to erradicate, mareks is a walk in the park compared to some virus and bacteria. Thankfully the bird of concern was still in quarantine before making the decision to cull. The vet had advised it after 25 days of different antibiotics, the vet was also keen to know what was going on as well. Damn there are some nasty bugs in some peoples flocks!! I learnt a huge lesson from that, I'll never take an adult bird on again.

I agree....some chickens diseases are nasty.
I'm glad you learned.
Some people never do.

 

[ReallyACL]

Yes, I am just reading this thread for the first time and wondering about the outcome. As someone with Marek's in their flock, I just want to say that it is not always as devastating as the stuff you read.
I was very interested to read your comment about ocular Marek's symptoms displaying so early after infection. I too was not aware of this. I am also very impressed that your vet is so knowledgeable about a chicken disease like Marek's. I have still not seen ocular symptoms in my birds but I am constantly on the look out for them. The curled toes usually results in them walking on their knuckles but hock walking is equally common.
I would say that your flock dynamic will lend itself to stress and stress will trigger Marek's outbreaks. I appreciate you free range but there will still be tensions in a flock with that many male hormones surging and it has been one of the most notable triggers for outbreaks in my experience. Culling adolescent males from the flock before their hormones kick in is a good management strategy with a Marek's flock, as is anything that reduces stress..... one of the reasons I believe broody reared chicks fare better than artificially, if the broody remains in the flock, because there are no integration stresses that can trigger an outbreak.

Anyway, please update us with the current status if you are able.... we can all learn from these situations as well as perhaps offer some advice or support.

Best wishes

Barbara

My vet has parents as farmers, she has a huge interest in livestock over pets, she is like a wizard with my animals, and she will house call for my maremma lsg dog/pup. She adores chooks, sheep, goats, pigs, you name it. She is young vibrant, always training herself to any new research available and is keen to involve the animal owners ideas when they are appropriate. I dont know how I'd get by without her. I've been using the same vet practice now for more than 25 years and their team has always been excellent. Their young vets are so so well trained and just love the animals they respond to and treat.

The bird that contracted mareks possibly contracted it from wild ducks as the hens were visiting the dam and the ducks were coming right up to the house to raise their young as they have worked out they are safe by the house from preditors (the dogs and their symbiotic relationships darn it!) All my hatchlings I have raised behind wall mesh and under a roof. Of course there is no guarentee that in future they wont be exposed through wild birds again, but I have made things easier to get on top of by having spaces the ducks wont enter to graze and enough runs and coups to be able to rest them long enough for virus and disease to die. But I'm on a farm and have the luxury of space, not everyone has that luxury I know.