TTMA lethal white gene

[violajack]

I read in the chicken calculator thread something about there being a lethal variant of the white gene? I have two English white hens with the black dot on their head. One of my roos is tibetan, one is golden maybe? Or some sort of tan? I know the golden can also be lethal. I had a chick hatch that was totally yellow, and seems to be feathering out completely white (no black dot like the other English whites.) She needed a shoe for a few hours to straighten toes on one foot. Her toes are fine now, but she's always seems a bit shakey on her legs. At first, I thought it was related to weakness or from the shoe, as she spent most of her time sitting back on her hocks. At just over two weeks old, she stands up on her feet full time, but she shakes, or wobbles. She gets around fine, eats and drinks, and tries to fly out of the brooder like her hatchmates, but I'm wondering if this is a sign of the lethal gene that will take her out within the week, as I read that they tend to not make it past 3 weeks. She also makes a different kind of sound that the others, but not it a bad way, just different. But she seems to be getting wobblier rather than stronger, which has made me start to wonder. Is this what a chick with the lethal light down color looks like as it goes downhill, or is this just a weak chick?

 

[FloorCandy]

Actually, it was the quail calculator thread, I mistyped in the OP: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/the-confusing-quail-calculator.429645/

Specifically from post #8: "Yes, white genes can be lethal. There is a "light down lethal" and they are English Whites but in 3 weeks they die or don't make it as little chicks. Some make it but carry the gene."

But in all my other googling, I could only find references to the golden color in quail having a lethal issue.

Either way, I do think you're correct that in this particular case, it's just a failure to thrive. She's not a hearty chick. I'm selfishly hoping she continues to be happy enough to make it to full size, but I'm prepared to cull her earlier if it looks like her quality of life changes for the worse.

Now that I know it’s white down lethal I could look it up, reading about it, one thing I found interesting was that the chicks showed a larger number of transversal bars than normal pharaohs.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8228174/

I had read recently in a thread that talked about calicos that calicos have fertility issues. I’ve looked up calicos before and descriptions are vague, and the photos varried. But one description was an abundance of horizontal striping on a pharaoh pattern bird, without the usual color or spots on the chest. I wonder if these mutations are related, maybe affecting the same chromosome. I believe that the light down lethal is far more lethal than calico.

 

[Fenrisulfr]

I am not 100% sure, but as far as I know the recessive Whites and dotted Whites have no lethal factor, as they are recessive. There would no Whites exist, if homozygotious bird had a lethal factor.

But there is also a dominant White, maybe there. I gotta take a look into my new quail book at home, may I can find something.

 

[violajack]

It's entirely possible she's just a sickly chick. It looks almost like a mild but potentially worsening neurological thing to me, so I wondered.

 

[FloorCandy]

I use 28% protein, 3- 3.5% calcium for my chicks. It’s made by h & h feed and it’s very pricey, so I just give it for maybe 3-4 weeks then I swap to one that’s a bit cheaper, but I switch gradually, so it takes a couple weeks. The main food I feed comes from chewy, called Hudson feeds, it’s their game bird feed, not the pheasant and quail feed. It’s 25% I think but a bit less calcium so I offer oyster shell as well.

 

[NatJ]

I use 28% protein, 3- 3.5% calcium for my chicks. It’s made by h & h feed and it’s very pricey, so I just give it for maybe 3-4 weeks then I swap to one that’s a bit cheaper, but I switch gradually, so it takes a couple weeks.

Is that amount of calcium OK for baby quail? I know it's considered too high for baby chickens. I do see you're only feeding it for a few weeks, but that is half of their growing time, because of how fast they grow.

(Not saying you have a problem, just trying to understand, because I am interested in quail but don't know much about them.)

 

[FloorCandy]

Is that amount of calcium OK for baby quail? I know it's considered too high for baby chickens. I do see you're only feeding it for a few weeks, but that is half of their growing time, because of how fast they grow.

(Not saying you have a problem, just trying to understand, because I am interested in quail but don't know much about them.)

Tbh I’m not sure about the calcium. When I first bought it, lockdown for covid had just begun, everything was sold out, my options were limited and I bought it. The chicks did so well I’ve been afraid to switch it out. I try to wean them off as their growth slows because it’s so expensive. If you just have a couple as pets it’s fine, I paid more for hamster food, I pay like $85+ per bag of dog food and I use a bag in 2 weeks, but if it works it’s worth it. However, I’m a bit of a hatchaholic and the food hurts the bottom line so I compromise. I love my quail more than the average person loves their livestock, but I still eat them, so they’re not pets.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I read in the chicken calculator thread something about there being a lethal variant of the white gene?

Interesting question!

My links are about "poultry" lethal genes..

https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article-abstract/29/1/10/895967?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328364164_LETHAL_GENES_IN_POULTRY

I hadn't realized death could occur later with lethal genes..
https://www.biologycorner.com/APbiology/inheritance/11-6_lethal_alleles.html

https://www.cqpoultryclub.com/article-02.html

Yes, I did read something about a lethal gene showing up in the white Wyandotte.. Just continuing my learning adventure!

And there are a number of animals that suffer from deafness associated with being white.

From the links I saw so far.. some genes are lethal and others are semi lethal...

I had a chick hatch that was totally yellow, and seems to be feathering out completely white (no black dot like the other English whites.) She needed a shoe for a few hours to straighten toes on one foot. Her toes are fine now, but she's always seems a bit shakey on her legs.

Sometimes failure to thrive is simply failure to thrive and the bird being treated right now would have been euthanized and was hatched with a possible nutrient deficiency or clear genetic weakness that will NOT help anyone's flock, carrying possible lethal genes or not. All parasites, deficiency, and disease will effect the weak first. Stinks that not all thrive, even when we provide all their needs.

Is that amount of calcium OK for baby quail?

No, it would not be a wise LONG term choice for chicks.. as quail never need that high of calcium not even for breeding according to Merck veterinary manual..
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...t-poultry/nutritional-requirements-of-poultry

Also a hatchaholic who feels the feed pain every year!

 

[violajack]

Actually, it was the quail calculator thread, I mistyped in the OP: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/the-confusing-quail-calculator.429645/

Specifically from post #8: "Yes, white genes can be lethal. There is a "light down lethal" and they are English Whites but in 3 weeks they die or don't make it as little chicks. Some make it but carry the gene."

But in all my other googling, I could only find references to the golden color in quail having a lethal issue.

Either way, I do think you're correct that in this particular case, it's just a failure to thrive. She's not a hearty chick. I'm selfishly hoping she continues to be happy enough to make it to full size, but I'm prepared to cull her earlier if it looks like her quality of life changes for the worse.

 

[Quailobsessed]

Do you know @Fenrisulfr?