Tumor or abscess? I think tumor ...

[Kiki]

Thanks for this, my thoughts exactly! No I will dose them directly, much prefer to know they got what they needed.

Dose them one day one (tomorrow or when ever) then dose them again in 7 -10 days.

 

[Kiki]

Some worms and some coccidia is not usually bad and won't usually cause problems but since you have disease in your flock it is probably a good idea to keep them at bay.

 

[Firefoot]

Some worms and some coccidia is not usually bad and won't usually cause problems but since you have disease in your flock it is probably a good idea to keep them at bay.

Yeah, I know with horses you'll always have some parasite load, you just have to manage it. But with what's been going on with the birds, I agree, I just want to get everybody as healthy as possible.

 

[Eggcessive]

So sorry that it turned out to probably be Mareks on both birds. The original skin lesion on Sylvie looked like a tumor from the first, but sometimes those are hard to tell from an abscess. With Mareks, the chickens are very susceptible to very common illnesses such as coccidiosis, mycoplasma, and anything else that some chickens can shake off. Mareks causes a decrease in white blood cells which protect the body and fight off infection. So they can die of any type of infection. They seem more susceptible to worms and other parasites. Thanks for updating your thread. It helps others to learn.

 

[Firefoot]

So sorry that it turned out to probably be Mareks on both birds. The original skin lesion on Sylvie looked like a tumor from the first, but sometimes those are hard to tell from an abscess. With Mareks, the chickens are very susceptible to very common illnesses such as coccidiosis, mycoplasma, and anything else that some chickens can shake off. Mareks causes a decrease in white blood cells which protect the body and fight off infection. So they can die of any type of infection. They seem more susceptible to worms and other parasites. Thanks for updating your thread. It helps others to learn.

Yes, I wanted to update so there is closure to this thread for anyone else who might stumble on it. I thought Sylvie's case was particularly weird and I couldn't really find anything about her symptoms, so hopefully this helps if anyone else has a similar experience. I thought it was a tumor from the moment I saw it but like I said, couldn't find much to compare to. In a way, I'm glad to it was Marek's and not something that I could've treated but missed. And it's definitely taught me a lot about chickens and my relationships with my birds.

I'll still treat the flock for worms and coccidiosis because it's just been a gross year and I want them to be well going into winter (everyone says it'll be super snowy this year ). What are your thoughts about the MS? I know with horses they can be exposed to things and then a lifelong carrier and shedder but that doesn't often prevent people from moving their horse or bringing new horses around it. Would it be irresponsible of me to get Marek's vaccinated POL pullets in the spring? (I am leaning towards "no don't do it" but ummmm I want more chickens ).

 

[rebrascora]

Sorry to hear that Edie didn't pick up and has also been euthanized.... but a wise decision in the circumstances and peace of mind to know she was riddled with tumours, that would have caused her suffering. I am surprised the PCR testing for Marek's is so expensive. I guess that is because the sampling tissue has to be sent out to another lab and there will be handing charges etc. I can understand it not being entirely satisfying to not have a confirmed diagnosis, but $100 is a lot of extra money to find and Marek's is by far the most likely diagnosis, so I would be pretty confident in the circumstances that it is the correct conclusion.

As regards the other findings, I personally would not treat the other chickens. Marek's suppresses the immune system so other viruses and bacteria as well as worms and coccidia are allowed to flourish, so the findings are not surprising. Did they advise you of the level of infestation?... ie low, medium or high? Most birds will have a low level of internal parasites and still be healthy and in some respects that low level may be preferable to clearing out their system and then leaving them open to re-infestation, creating a yoyo effect with regular deworming treatment being necessary to try to maintain them worm free. I have not dewormed my Marek's flock and they are not overrun with worms despite seeing the odd one here and there and a very sick Marek's bird that had a high level of roundworms but died from a secondary respiratory infection. The birds that are not symptomatic with Marek's do not appear to be compromised health wise. If you are concerned, I would get a flock faecal float done (if it is not too expensive ($10-20) , but ask about acceptable levels when you get the result. I would rather do routine testing than routine worming as the chemicals or even the administering of them can stress the bird.
I have no experience of MS. The only draw back to bringing in Marek's vaccinated point of lay pullets in the future is that they may simply not survive. The vaccine is not guaranteed to protect them from Marek's and they will be susceptible to MS. The stress of integration at a point when they are already vulnerable due to hormonal surges etc would be putting them at greater risk and possibly your existing flock in jeopardy too. Unless you are getting them from a hatchery, you cannot be sure that the vaccination and subsequent bio security afterwards has been effective. I would be inclined to raise chicks from healthy birds in your own flock or get vaccinated chicks from a hatchery and practice biosecurity yourself for the first few weeks.
Yes, you would be exposing new birds to risks and maybe that seems unfair, but thousands of chicks die each year in the postal system, but it doesn't stop people getting them mail order or even thinking twice about it. Aside from the risk to the birds themselves, you risk the emotional and financial loss if the new birds you get become sick and die, but there is also a reasonably good chance that they will survive, so my advice would be, don't let this put you off adding to your flock. The irresponsible thing would be to allow possibly infected birds to leave your flock.

That is my take on it. I know that many people will not agree (particularly about the worming) but this is my experience with conditions in my area. Just putting an alternative view.

 

[Firefoot]

Sorry to hear that Edie didn't pick up and has also been euthanized.... but a wise decision in the circumstances and peace of mind to know she was riddled with tumours, that would have caused her suffering. I am surprised the PCR testing for Marek's is so expensive. I guess that is because the sampling tissue has to be sent out to another lab and there will be handing charges etc. I can understand it not being entirely satisfying to not have a confirmed diagnosis, but $100 is a lot of extra money to find and Marek's is by far the most likely diagnosis, so I would be pretty confident in the circumstances that it is the correct conclusion.

As regards the other findings, I personally would not treat the other chickens. Marek's suppresses the immune system so other viruses and bacteria as well as worms and coccidia are allowed to flourish, so the findings are not surprising. Did they advise you of the level of infestation?... ie low, medium or high? Most birds will have a low level of internal parasites and still be healthy and in some respects that low level may be preferable to clearing out their system and then leaving them open to re-infestation, creating a yoyo effect with regular deworming treatment being necessary to try to maintain them worm free. I have not dewormed my Marek's flock and they are not overrun with worms despite seeing the odd one here and there and a very sick Marek's bird that had a high level of roundworms but died from a secondary respiratory infection. The birds that are not symptomatic with Marek's do not appear to be compromised health wise. If you are concerned, I would get a flock faecal float done (if it is not too expensive ($10-20) , but ask about acceptable levels when you get the result. I would rather do routine testing than routine worming as the chemicals or even the administering of them can stress the bird.
I have no experience of MS. The only draw back to bringing in Marek's vaccinated point of lay pullets in the future is that they may simply not survive. The vaccine is not guaranteed to protect them from Marek's and they will be susceptible to MS. The stress of integration at a point when they are already vulnerable due to hormonal surges etc would be putting them at greater risk and possibly your existing flock in jeopardy too. Unless you are getting them from a hatchery, you cannot be sure that the vaccination and subsequent bio security afterwards has been effective. I would be inclined to raise chicks from healthy birds in your own flock or get vaccinated chicks from a hatchery and practice biosecurity yourself for the first few weeks.
Yes, you would be exposing new birds to risks and maybe that seems unfair, but thousands of chicks die each year in the postal system, but it doesn't stop people getting them mail order or even thinking twice about it. Aside from the risk to the birds themselves, you risk the emotional and financial loss if the new birds you get become sick and die, but there is also a reasonably good chance that they will survive, so my advice would be, don't let this put you off adding to your flock. The irresponsible thing would be to allow possibly infected birds to leave your flock.

That is my take on it. I know that many people will not agree (particularly about the worming) but this is my experience with conditions in my area. Just putting an alternative view.

Thanks, this all makes sense. Yes the testing had to be sent out to a specific lab and I felt confident enough about the COD to forgo it. :/ I was surprised, too, I didn't realize the necropsy wouldn't test for it. The worm load values for Edie were 300-450. The pathologist said that issues don't arise until the numbers are much higher but that she still had significant enough of a load to produce those results. I realize now she might not be a great representative bird, what with having been compromised, but I do worry a bit about the rest. I can do a separate fecal, I need to get the horses done anyway.

And the only bird that might leave the flock is the roo if he isn't a good one, but I guess I'd put him down at this point than rehome him. As for new birds, I definitely have the opportunity to get younger ones -- the farm where I got these ones this summer has offered to replace my two that passed. He gets eggs from hatcheries and hatches and grows out, I believe, so I could get younger ones (he is a legitimate business, not just some rando who has tons of birds). I'm not set up nor do I have the time for anything that requires heat or being inside so I'd probably still get 8+weeks. I was thinking POL pullets would have an easier integration having already grown up some -- like if I got them at 17/18 weeks and didn't integrate them til 25/26 weeks.

I understand it's a risk and I appreciate both sides of advice. I'm not adding anything for a while so I have some time to think about it. Thanks again for all the advice!

 

[rebrascora]

I broody rear from my own Marek's exposed flock, so no heating or separate housing required and they are integrated into the flock from day one by the broody, so that might be something to consider if you get a broody hen next year and you have a rooster. You do have to be prepared to deal (butcher) with surplus cockerels that result from hatching though or find someone who will.
Like you, I have horses and have been getting regular faecal testing rather than routine worming for a number or years now and have been very pleasantly surprised at how much less treatment for worms they need than is routinely recommended. We now also have equine saliva testing kits for tapeworms so I don't even need to treat for them "just in case" or go to the expense of having a blood test sampled by a vet which isn't cost effective.
That reading for your necropsied bird would definitely indicate she needed treatment but I would not automatically assume the others do.