Tumor or abscess? I think tumor ...

[Firefoot]

Hi guys! Sorry for the delay. Sylvie finally went to the vet yesterday as it seemed to be twice as big nearly overnight -- it's really huge. The vet said it seemed more like an ulcerated spider bite that is now encapsulated. He first recommended surgery, but unfortunately that's just not an option. He then said to keep treating it with saline and sugar or sugardine and gave me chicken-dose oral SMZs. He said it might take 4+ weeks to close up and will probably look like it's doing nothing for a few weeks and then rapidly heal, but he said there is definitely a chance she can heal without surgery. He thought it was a spider bite rather than a tumor based on how it looked and because most chicken tumors are internal.

So, that's where we're at. I had planned to be keeping her out with the others during the day but she's been picking it herself a bit already this morning so I gave her a bath and she's back in her crate until it dries. If she keeps picking it, I'm not sure how I'll get her to stop as she flips out trying to get things off her neck (I've tried to wrap it a couple times and she'll strangle herself before she stops trying to get it off). But, taking it day by day. As always, Sylvie is plucky and sassy as ever - hates taking meds, resents her baths, but LOVES getting blow dried.

 

[Kiki]

Wow I was not expecting a spider bite.
Keep up the good work!

 

[Eggcessive]

Glad to know that she may get better. Have you tried something light weight like a piece of thin TShirt material or a hankerchief loosely around her neck, help by a safety pen or knotted? Keep us posted on how things are going.

 

[Firefoot]

Wow I was not expecting a spider bite.
Keep up the good work!

Me either! Some people had speculated it was a fly bite, which seemed unlikely, but I could definitely see a spider bite. I had a spider or tick bite abscess on a cat once, though it wasn't nearly this bad.

Glad to know that she may get better. Have you tried something light weight like a piece of thin TShirt material or a hankerchief loosely around her neck, help by a safety pen or knotted? Keep us posted on how things are going.

This is a great idea! I had just been wrapping with rolled gauze and vetrap. Something like a thin sock might work well, I'll give it a try tonight.

 

[Firefoot]

Okay all, I need some direction. Sylvie has remained her plucky, sweet self. Because of the openness of her wound and the incessant rain, she spent more than a week in the garage in her dog crate and tolerated it like a champ. She's been turned out in the afternoons alone or with one friend the past few days and still dust bathes, wallks and runs, eats, drinks, and is a normal looking chicken.

However, this wound is not healing. She's been on SMZs for 10 days. I've been dressing it religiously with sugar and have been covering it with a sock at night but one morning I came out and her whole neck (with sock covering) was swarmed with ants to get the sugar. Gross and horrifying. So I put down some poultry dust under her bedding and the ants have been better. But it's hard to keep much sugar in the wound, because of how it is. Anything that dries it up tends to make it look more irritated. Vetericyn dried it out a lot, or let it dry out, and so did Biozide uncovered, but I've had some luck with sugar, then biozide, then a gauze pad and her sock. However, the wound still is not HEALING. It is getting so much bigger. It's huge. It bobs when she walks and makes her hold her neck funny. I don't even want to post a photo because I'm so mortified. I'm at my wit's end with this, I feel like a monster making her deal with this huge open wound.

Additionally, she is not growing. She's a 5 month old Faverolles and weighs 1.5-2lbs. She is half the size of anything else I have -- even my little Ameraucanas are bigger than her. She's always been runty but it really seems like she's not growing. She still feels like such a little baby when I pick her up.

Today I tried to turn her out with her friends and the two girls that are usually best with her, typically pretty meek and chill, both went after her to peck her. I brought her back in til I can turn her out with the lame hen later.

I am having serious anxiety about her condition and feel like an animal abuser by making her deal with this. I cannot do surgery for her. The vet said it could take weeks to look better but he didn't necessarily say it'd look a lot worse before that, and it is huge. It's hard to look at a chicken that is eating, drinking, and happy to be out in the sun and want to put them down, but I'm starting to feel like that's the best option. And if it is, what is the best method to put a chicken down? I super don't want to cut off her head, but do I have to take her to the vet like other animals?

Ugh. I appreciate any advice.

 

[Kiki]

I'm sorry, I think you tried long enough. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have tried this long.

A popular method is the broomstick method, YouTube it.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi
I'm so sorry that she has not improved. My gut feeling is that this is a tumour and together with this statement from you....

Additionally, she is not growing. She's a 5 month old Faverolles and weighs 1.5-2lbs. She is half the size of anything else I have -- even my little Ameraucanas are bigger than her. She's always been runty but it really seems like she's not growing. She still feels like such a little baby when I pick her up

and this...

brought her back in til I can turn her out with the lame hen later.

.... I suspect it may be Marek's disease. I have had birds with Marek's develop sub cutaneous tumours. When/how did the lameness occur in the other bird?

I don't think anyone would criticise you for ending this for her. If you are appalled by the growth/wound and you are seeing it everyday I think it must be really substantial. No one can doubt your commitment to helping this pullet to heal but clearly she is not and there comes a time when you have to make a decision about if it is in the birds best interests to continue.
Normally I use the cervical dislocation by broom shank method but with a bird like this with such a huge swelling it may not be appropriate. I can understand you have similar concerns about using a hatchet to decapitate.
I have read about people using ether which can be purchased as car starter fluid and used in a plastic bucket with a lid. Ether used to be used as an anaesthetic, so it may be a reasonable way to put her to sleep. I have not tried this method myself and I am not advocating or condoning it. I would not try the baking soda and vinegar which is often suggested to suffocate them with carbon dioxide as I do not believe that is humane. The best bet would probably be to take her back to the vets to be euthanized and it might give you peace of mind that you are doing the right thing since the vet will see that the deterioration.

If you go with the ether option, do plenty of research first. I would do it at night when she is sleeping. Lift her off the roost or nest box, have the lidded bucket with the ether sprayed onto a cloth in the bottom already in it, in a well ventilated area (ether is very flammable) but is heavier than air, so will sit in the bottom of the bucket. Place her in the bucket and replace the lid. You may want to add a second cloth soaked in ether once she has lost consciousness. Be prepared for some after death spasms. It may not happen with ether, I don't know but it does happen with most other forms of euthanasia and can be quite distressing even if you are expecting it. It does not mean the bird is suffering. Again, I am not promoting or advocating this but just suggesting what I would do if I were to try this method myself. Going to the vet would be best but I appreciate you will have already thrown a lot of money at this problem and finances are limited for most people.
Good luck whatever you decide.


Thinking about it, you might consider having a necropsy done and your state diagnostics lab would euthanize for you in that instance, if you were able to deliver her to the lab yourself. Costs for necropsies vary from state to state but many are subsidised because chickens are part of the food chain, so it may be worth investigating that option.... obviously location will also be relevant since the lab maybe several hours away from you. If I am right and it is Marek's, it is helpful to know and learn how to manage it and take precautions not to spread it etc. so a necropsy would be a good idea if you can afford it.

 

[Kiki]

I couldn't agree more about having a necropsy done.
You in the US correct?
All state labs can be found here:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/necropsy-and-disease-testing-lab-info.1236884/

 

[Firefoot]

So I had a friend come put her down via cervical dislocation. She went very quick. This morning after I posted I went back out to sit with her and noticed she opened another tumor on her leg. So ... time to go. Unfortunately my schedule does not allow me to take her to the lab or mail her (I have to be at school from 3-8PM today and 9AM-5PM tomorrow and Thursday). I guess I feel pretty confident it was Marek's as I don't often see much else listed for tumors in chickens.

@rebrascora, the other hen came up lame the other day. She's a 21 week old Marans, same hatch day as Sylvie I believe. She is presenting like Marek's, too, I guess -- lame on her right leg, she has heat in her hock, and gets around but very hobbly and loses her balance on tight turns. She's a big girl, my fastest growing pullet, and has a lot of weight to bear on the other leg. Is there anything I can do for her if it's Marek's or do I have to put her down? I assume they all have it now, so do I just have to worry about the ones with active symptoms?

Ugh. "Chickens are so easy!" they said ...

 

[rebrascora]

I'm pleased you found someone to end it quickly for her. I know too well how hard it is to make that decision to end the life of a young bird that you have cared for so closely.
I only cull Marek's sick birds when they lose interest in food, although in your pullet's case where there were open weeping tumours, I imagine that would have been an exception to my rule of thumb. I have had some make pretty miraculous recoveries from lameness. The best recoveries seem to occur within a few days when you cannot tell they had ever been incapacitated but I have had some that made remarkable improvement after months of supportive care and went back to free ranging with the flock after being nest bound unable to walk for 6 weeks in one case. The best you can do is a good quality poultry vitamin supplement to support their immune system and probiotics/fermented feed/live yoghurt to support the gut and keep them as happy and stress free as possible. They are actively shedding the disease whilst they are symptomatic and a reservoir of infected material building up in the coop particularly will make it more likely that others will contract it, so it may be beneficial to remove them from the flock whilst symptomatic or some people cull at the first appearance of symptoms once they know they have the disease. A periodic deep clean of the coop with Virkon S which is the only disinfectant I know that is active against Marek's may help to keep the risk of future outbreaks low. All that dust that builds up in the coop is how the virus spreads and birds flapping wings to get up onto roosts etc means the virus infected dander dust becomes airborne and is then inhaled to infect new hosts. Keeping dust levels low and disinfecting routinely or at least after a bird has become symptomatic should help. I find allowing Marek's sick birds out onto grass in gentle sunshine has been one of the most beneficial things but not always possible in many climates and seasons.