Turkey Talk for 2014

[Sydney Acres]

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It's really scary when something like this happens, but it's also very important not to over-react. Step back, take a breath, don't immediately jump to the worst case scenario, stop thinking about all the potential for future loss, and look at the situation from a here-and-now perspective..

Nobody has died. Everyone is eating, drinking, pooping and acting normally. You had one BBW with some clear nasal mucous and some rare sneezing over a few weeks, and your Narris have some mild nasal congestion that isn't even affecting them, in a situation that is hot and dusty. From an illness perspective, the average kindergarten class is much worse off.

I'm not trying to be flippant or rude, and I know you're really scared right now, but sometimes being blunt can help someone look at a situation from a different perspective. Yes, you made a huge mistake by bringing new birds into your flock without quarantining them. But you can't go back and change that. Learn from it, always remember how scared it's making you feel, and never do that again.

The decisions you need to make are very important for anyone who is dealing with a potential disease outbreak. Emphasis on POTENTIAL. You don't even know for sure that you have an infection in your flock. You could just have birds that are producing thin mucous to protectively coat the lining of their delicate nasal passages from the dry, dusty hot air. Turkeys produce more of it than chickens because their passages are larger, and we notice it more when we're worried and look for it because their nostrils are much bigger, so it's easier to see.

You have to decide if you want to know what this is so you can respond to one specific issue, or if you want to try to cover all bases, never know if you corrected the problem (if you even had one in the first place), and just hope for the best. You live in Southern CA, and there is a huge poultry industry in that state. There are numerous county and state agencies available to help you, all deeply discounted in cost because the poultry industry funds most of it. (If backyard flocks get infected, their multi-million-bird flocks can get infected as well, causing huge financial losses. So the poultry industry is very generous with diagnostic and surveillance support for the general public.) Having a bird culled and necropsied, or having some serologic blood tests done on a live bird to test for the most worrisome of the likely infections, or both, can be done very cheaply. Here is probably your best place to start: http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/about/index.cfm. This lab is associated with the pathology department at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine, and has an office in San Bernardino. According to their price list, if you have less than 1000 birds on the premises there is no charge for a gross necropsy on the first 2 birds, and only $39.50 for histology on up to 20 tissue samples (that's looking at slides of preserved tissue under the microscope, which can be very helpful to get a diagnosis). The turkey respiratory disease serology panel, which is done on a blood sample and covers 5 different diseases, is only $7.70, or PCR on 4 out of the 5 turkey respiratory diseases (often more useful than serology while the disease is still active, but does require a tracheal swab, which is impossible to get on a conscious bird) for $38.00. Here is a link to their price list: http://cahfs.ucdavis.edu/local-assets/pdfs/fee lists/Poultry_fee_list_2013.pdf. You can call them and someone will answer your questions. They are there to help people in situations just like this. Be sure to tell them that you have already started medicating the birds, and ask if that will affect the accuracy of any of their tests. If any followup tests are recommended, be sure to remind them what medications the birds were given, just to make sure that any tests you do will be accurate. (Since you've already started the medication, don't stop it prematurely to accommodate a lab test. The very few tests that the medication would interfere with would need the antibiotic out of the bird's system for at least 10-14 days anyway, so stopping now wouldn't be beneficial, and could promote drug-resistant bacterial growth.)

Please don't cull you Narri breeders on the theory that it would protect the new poults, especially before getting the test results on the BBWs, if you decide to necropsy them. Chances are that depopulation would be unnecessary. And in the few situations where you might have something so serious in your flock that your poults would be in danger, there's no guarantee that depopulation of the adults would prevent disease transmission in a clutch that will hatch in less than 2 weeks, as some viruses can live in the environment for weeks to months. There's just no way to know 100% until you get the right information. And as you said before, you have quite a bit of money tied up in your Narris, so it only makes sense to spend a little bit more to find out if depopulation is really necessary before you throw away that entire investment.

Take a deep breath, keep your birds as cool as you can in this heat wave (shallow wading pools are wonderful for hot turkeys), run a sprinkler near the birds to minimize the dust and humidify and cool the air if possible, be sure you're feeding a good quality diet that has enough vitamin A to support healthy respiratory tissue, remove any obvious sources of stress to the birds, keep the BBW's in a comfortable quarantine (they're not as hardy as the heritage birds, and are more sensitive to the heat), and don't do anything that you might regret later. You'll get through this, and chances are that your Narris will too.

 

[Sydney Acres]

So I did more research (Thank you BYC and those that post awesome threads for the rest of us!!) and found out I can get the necropsy done for free for both BBWs at a lab here through UC Davis

PLUS the closest lab is within 40 minutes so I hope they will let me drive the birds there versus mailing them. Now knowing it won't cost an arm and a leg, we have no intention to return the birds to the feed store and will send them both for necropsy. I hope to sell eggs and babies and it would be ridiculously irresponsible to just let this slide and not test the sick birds. They are quarantined for now until we can call the lab Monday.

Thanks @chicken pickin for your advice.

It looks like you found some information while I was writing up my previous post. I wasn't sure how close the lab was to you, but less than an hour away is fantastic. Sometimes getting the birds to the lab is the most difficult part. Hopefully you'll find that there was nothing to worry about. Please keep us posted.

On a related note, I would never buy chicks or poults from a feed store that will take a bird back for any reason after it's left the store. Absolutely, no exceptions, not for any reason, period!! That's just asking for disease to be brought in, since the store has no control over what the birds were exposed to while out of their care. Last year I was sent 12 extra chicks as packing peanuts with my order, and they were of a great breed, but not one I wanted. They came from an NPIP breed preservation center. I have very effective biosecurity policies on my farm, and these chicks had gone right from the shipping box to a brand new indoor brooder, so the potential for disease transmission was essentially zero. I called my local feed store, who knows me and my setup quite well, explained the situation to the owner, and offered to donate the chicks to him for resale. And despite our personal relationship, the zero risk involved, and his potential profit, he declined. He helped me find a great home for them, but he refused to take them into his store because he didn't want the liability if the one-in-a-million disaster happened. He keeps his chicks/poults displayed in a way that customers cannot touch them, and his employees are required to thoroughly wash their hands before opening the displays. And once a bird is removed from the display, they have a "you touch it you bought it" policy, which is discussed with each customer before the display is opened. Just really basic protections, possibly a bit above and beyond the norm, but very effective.

 

[TattooedMama]

It looks like you found some information while I was writing up my previous post. I wasn't sure how close the lab was to you, but less than an hour away is fantastic. Sometimes getting the birds to the lab is the most difficult part. Hopefully you'll find that there was nothing to worry about. Please keep us posted.

On a related note, I would never buy chicks or poults from a feed store that will take a bird back for any reason after it's left the store. Absolutely, no exceptions, not for any reason, period!! That's just asking for disease to be brought in, since the store has no control over what the birds were exposed to while out of their care. Last year I was sent 12 extra chicks as packing peanuts with my order, and they were of a great breed, but not one I wanted. They came from an NPIP breed preservation center. I have very effective biosecurity policies on my farm, and these chicks had gone right from the shipping box to a brand new indoor brooder, so the potential for disease transmission was essentially zero. I called my local feed store, who knows me and my setup quite well, explained the situation to the owner, and offered to donate the chicks to him for resale. And despite our personal relationship, the zero risk involved, and his potential profit, he declined. He helped me find a great home for them, but he refused to take them into his store because he didn't want the liability if the one-in-a-million disaster happened. He keeps his chicks/poults displayed in a way that customers cannot touch them, and his employees are required to thoroughly wash their hands before opening the displays. And once a bird is removed from the display, they have a "you touch it you bought it" policy, which is discussed with each customer before the display is opened. Just really basic protections, possibly a bit above and beyond the norm, but very effective.

I am still learning. I tend to get anxiety over things and think the worst but I like to research and that usually helps calm my nerves to some extent. I just sold the same place two roosters this past week, she asked where they were from and then put them right in with other birds. I had often seen birds off to the side and figured they were being quarantined. I was very surprised she just added them to the flock-needless to say we won't be getting birds there ever again. All my other birds have been from reputable breeders but of course, the hatcheries are the only ones that have the broad breasted turkeys. My mistake, lesson learned. We have two feed stores in the area worth going to, that one is pricier but has more feed options plus my kids like to look at the animals, the other is cheaper but has less feed options and no animals for the kiddos to look at. I was pretty peeved they said they would take them back for free but no refund at first; not only am I out money but they would just dose them with antibiotics and resell them for more since they are bigger now. They will be opening up a Tractor Supply here soon and I can't wait!!

I am a bit confused on the necropsy and how that works. I had an essay to write today for school so my ability to continue researching Turkey stuff was put on hold. Does the necropsy include any testing or will I need to pay for that separately? Also in your opinion, should I dose the rest of my flock for a few more days? So far I only did yesterday. SInce the BBWs will be necropsied I haven't dosed them again. My Narris are back in the house in my office in their little brooder. This way I can keep an eye on them. I hope they will be ok because I really like these guys. We were pretty certain we had one male but another presented himself yesterday when he strutted for the first time and turned bright red trying to warn us away when we were catching them outside to give them meds.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Every lab is a little different on what they include in their "necropsy." Some labs consider a necropsy to be a package deal containing the gross necropsy plus histopathology for one set price, and the two items can't be done separately. Other labs consider it to be a package, but will allow them to be separated if a person doesn't want both procedures. And then other labs consider everything to be an individual procedure, and everything must be specifically requested and is priced separately. So you always have to ask what the "necropsy" includes, and if there are other procedures that you know you want, be sure to ask for them before the necropsy is done to be sure that samples are collected at the appropriate time. Based on the price list, it does look like this lab does everything separately, so the free "necropsy" only includes the gross necropsy, with the histopathology being an additional low cost. Some of the PCRs that are really critical to industry, such as avian influenza and newcastles disease, are also free, with the two different mycoplasma PCR's being only $19 each (which is hugely discounted compared to a private lab).

I've not dealt with this lab specifically, but the equivalent Avian Disease lab in WA state usually has someone call me or e-mail me after the gross necropsy with recommendations for followup testing, if needed, based on the gross necropsy findings. They are quite good at keeping me updated on my bill, and don't make frivolous recommendations. Be sure to ask what this lab does in regard to followup testing, and be sure to ask when you can expect results. If they're more than a few hours late, be sure to call them. You don't want to have samples degrade in this summer heat if they're not utilized in a timely manner.

Regarding use of antibiotics, I always recommend that once you start using them you should continue using them for the full course of treatment, as long as the animal isn't having any serious side effects. Short courses or low doses of antibiotics promote the growth of bacteria that are antibiotic resistant, which is a huge problem in both livestock husbandry, veterinary medicine, and human medicine. Since this was an over the counter medication, there should be directions on the label regarding proper use of the drug.

 

[TattooedMama]

Every lab is a little different on what they include in their "necropsy." Some labs consider a necropsy to be a package deal containing the gross necropsy plus histopathology for one set price, and the two items can't be done separately. Other labs consider it to be a package, but will allow them to be separated if a person doesn't want both procedures. And then other labs consider everything to be an individual procedure, and everything must be specifically requested and is priced separately. So you always have to ask what the "necropsy" includes, and if there are other procedures that you know you want, be sure to ask for them before the necropsy is done to be sure that samples are collected at the appropriate time. Based on the price list, it does look like this lab does everything separately, so the free "necropsy" only includes the gross necropsy, with the histopathology being an additional low cost. Some of the PCRs that are really critical to industry, such as avian influenza and newcastles disease, are also free, with the two different mycoplasma PCR's being only $19 each (which is hugely discounted compared to a private lab).

I've not dealt with this lab specifically, but the equivalent Avian Disease lab in WA state usually has someone call me or e-mail me after the gross necropsy with recommendations for followup testing, if needed, based on the gross necropsy findings. They are quite good at keeping me updated on my bill, and don't make frivolous recommendations. Be sure to ask what this lab does in regard to followup testing, and be sure to ask when you can expect results. If they're more than a few hours late, be sure to call them. You don't want to have samples degrade in this summer heat if they're not utilized in a timely manner.

Regarding use of antibiotics, I always recommend that once you start using them you should continue using them for the full course of treatment, as long as the animal isn't having any serious side effects. Short courses or low doses of antibiotics promote the growth of bacteria that are antibiotic resistant, which is a huge problem in both livestock husbandry, veterinary medicine, and human medicine. Since this was an over the counter medication, there should be directions on the label regarding proper use of the drug.

Thanks again, I did a second dose on all my birds. I'm looking at the price list for UC Davis and trying to figure out how this all works. So the necropsy is essentially a dissection and autopsy of the bird. I do see the Turkey respiratory panel for $7.70, I also see the Mycoplasma PCRs you mentioned but I'm not certain I understand. I see one tests for antibodies of the disease so I'm assuming the other tests for the actual disease? Is it necessary for the PCR testing or is is enough to do the all in one panel? I appreciate your help and advice. I'm sure they can tell me this stuff over the phone. Part of me is just interested to know ahead of time and another part of me wants to ensure that they don't try to steer me into unnecessary testing and subsequently unnecessary costs.

 

[Sydney Acres]

It is my understanding that the PCRs detect the DNA of the infective organism, and is quite accurate when positive. Timing is very important with PCRs, because in some diseases the organism is eliminated by the immune system before the symptoms are fully resolved. So while a PCR is very accurate when positive, a negative can be a false negative if the sample is collected at the wrong time, or not preserved properly. It will be important for you to discuss the timeline of the BBWs symptoms with the lab personnel to determine if it would be useful to run a PCR for any of the 4 diseases where it is available. Also, be sure that the antibiotic won't interfere with the test.

The serology tests measure the antibodies in the blood. Antibodies are produced with any exposure to the disease, so you can get an elevated antibody level from just exposure to a virus, even if there's not enough of an exposure to cause disease. It can also take some time to produce antibodies, so testing too early after initial exposure can cause a false negative. Often serology testing is "paired," meaning that the first test is done during illness, when the antibody levels won't be as high, and then is repeated in 2-4 weeks to see if the levels have risen significantly. A major increase in antibody levels is considered proof of disease,

So both of those types of tests can be quite useful, but they must be used and interpreted properly, remembering what they actually measure. The laboratory staff can advise you on which tests will be most accurate for your specific situation. I tend to request that they both be run, and occasionally the pathologist calls me and recommends that I do something different, but usually doing both can give you the big picturel

You probably don't need to worry about having unnecessary tests recommended. Given that this is a university avian disease lab, employees have no financial incentive to do anything that is unnecessary, and they have the expertise to know what needs to be done.

 

[chickadoodles]

So I did more research (Thank you BYC and those that post awesome threads for the rest of us!!) and found out I can get the necropsy done for free for both BBWs at a lab here through UC Davis

PLUS the closest lab is within 40 minutes so I hope they will let me drive the birds there versus mailing them. Now knowing it won't cost an arm and a leg, we have no intention to return the birds to the feed store and will send them both for necropsy. I hope to sell eggs and babies and it would be ridiculously irresponsible to just let this slide and not test the sick birds. They are quarantined for now until we can call the lab Monday.

Thanks @chicken pickin for your advice.

Some of the Illnesses that cause those symptoms can live on the ground and in the coops for months. The NPIP program will tell people to keep any birds off that ground for months to kill any disease or virus.

 

[Raiquee]

My two blue slate hens. They hate me. I need to bribe them with goodies so they don't freak out each time I walk past their run.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Agreed. That's why culling the adult Narris before the poults hatch is not a good plan to prevent the poults from getting infected. Any shared environment can allow for transmission, even weeks to months after the infected occupants have left.

 

[TattooedMama]

My two blue slate hens. They hate me. I need to bribe them with goodies so they don't freak out each time I walk past their run.

I had to LOL, I'm sorry though!! Mine aren't so sweet as others describe either. As they get older they seem to be getting more used to us-except the smallest. And they can all be caught and petted.