Turkey Talk for 2014

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casportpony said:
Is he a pet? If he's a pet maybe you could find a cat/dog vet to look at him and prescribe some Metacam. I have a bird vet that I use, but I know my dog/cat vet would be up to seeing a turkey and helping.

-Kathy
Click to expand...
He's 1 part pet, 1 part livestock... I have some feelers out to see if my dog/cat vet will take a look.

What does Metacam do? Why would I be looking for that in particular?

Thanks for your help.
 
So we are off to a bad start. We did have 6 of 10 chick internally pipped last night. I made the decision that if the chick who had pipped Monday had not externally pipped I would assist. I found this appropriate especially as this one was a HUGE egg and the air cell was small. I figured the babe may just have grown too large ti maneuver. I didn't want to lose anyone else. I intended to make a pip hole for the poult but couldn't discern where his beak was. I started directly in the middle of the air cell as he filled up each side. Slowly chipping away looking for a beak I could tell something was wrong. The poult had a crossbeak, a severe one at that. First all I could see was the bottom of his beak and I couldn't even locate the top. I finally did see it and the angle was too much, not only would it never have gotten out of the egg but it wouldn't have survived. We decided to cull. We are down to 8 eggs now and it's DDay. Last night candling we had to toss an egg. I didn't want to eggtopsy but something clearly went wrong. There was no longer a clear air cell and the egg was filled with fluid, this was the other ginormous egg, undoubtedly from the same hen as my cross beak as they appeared identical (possibly an older hen?) The air cell on this one was very behind as well. It looks like the poult drowned.

I'm holding out hope for the others. Perhaps we will have some action by tonight but certainly by tomorrow I would think.
 
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TurnipTruck said:
Quote:
Metacam is an anti-inflammatory, much like Motrin or Aleve for people (do not use Motrin or Aleve in turkeys). The drug name is meloxicam, with Metacam being the brand name that is labelled for dogs. Meloxicam has been shown to be both the safest and most effective anti-inflammatory for birds. It comes in three forms, all of which are by prescription only: a liquid formulated for dogs (Metacam, which is universally hated by my birds), a generic tablet made for humans which can be prescribed by any vet, and it can be custom compounded by some private pharmacies as either a capsule or a liquid to any flavor and strength desired. The dose for birds is considerably higher than for humans and dogs, so most turkeys and large chickens can take 1/4 - 1/2 of the smaller tablet made for people. There is some research in chickens that the drug sticks around longer in that species than in other types of birds, so typically the full dose is given for several days, then the dosage and frequency are decreased to compensate for the slow drug elimination with long term use, much like meloxicam is used off label in cats. There is no research in turkeys to my knowledge, but drug doses for turkeys are typically derived from the research done in chickens. I use the same mg/kg dosages for both species, adjusting as needed to the lower end of the dosage range because larger animals typically need slightly lower mg/kg dosages than smaller animals.

Meloxicam is a great medication for limping turkeys, but there are three concerns that you should consider before using it. First, if the leg is rotating there is likely either some ligament or tendon damage in or near one of the major joints in the leg, or possibly even a dislocation, which may be less painful with anti-inflammatories, but will not be corrected by them. If the leg is truly rotating, then this is probably a permanent condition that is unlikely to heal without surgery. Second, anti-inflammatories do provide some wonderful pain control at any stage of an injury, but you get the most benefit from them when used early. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be used in the later stages, but that the benefit will be less than if they were used initially. Third, meloxicam does not have an established drug withdrawal time for food animals, and your vet could face disciplinary action from the USDA and the State Board of Veterinary Examiners for prescribing this medication to a bird that is "one part pet and one part livestock." It is legal for him/her to prescribe it to a pet turkey, but if that turkey were to later be eaten and problems occur because of drug residues, s/he could be held accountable. So very few vets would prescribe it under those circumstances. From a practical point of view, most drug residue issues concern antibiotics and toxic substances, so medications like meloxicam are usually considered to have a 60 day withdrawal time and there are very few actual risks. But sometimes practical and legal conclusions don't come out the same, so keep that in mind.

Bottom line, given what you've posted there is a high probability that this is a serious injury that will not heal with just medication. Before you consider medication, you should really make the final decision as to whether this bird is livestock or a pet. If it is livestock, then it should be culled ASAP to prevent further discomfort. If it is a pet then it needs medical care, with the realization that meloxicam is a good place to start, but if the leg is truly starting to turn and surgery is needed, then the sooner the surgery is performed the more likely it is to be successful. Once all the muscles and tendons start to rotate in a growing bird, those rotational forces add extra stress on any surgical repair, which means that the repair is more likely to fail.

Good luck. I know this is a hard decision.
Click to expand...
 
Sydney Acres said:
Bottom line, given what you've posted there is a high probability that this is a serious injury that will not heal with just medication. Before you consider medication, you should really make the final decision as to whether this bird is livestock or a pet. If it is livestock, then it should be culled ASAP to prevent further discomfort. If it is a pet then it needs medical care, with the realization that meloxicam is a good place to start, but if the leg is truly starting to turn and surgery is needed, then the sooner the surgery is performed the more likely it is to be successful. Once all the muscles and tendons start to rotate in a growing bird, those rotational forces add extra stress on any surgical repair, which means that the repair is more likely to fail.

Good luck. I know this is a hard decision.
Click to expand...
My dog/cat vet said he will take a look as he trying to learn about poultry in an effort to better service his farm clients. If he determines that it is surgery, then it will be off to freezer camp. If he determines that it is something less serious, then we'll give the poor guy more time to heal.

Thanks for all your help. I hope that we can get this little guy fixed and on about his life. If I have to hedge my bets, I guess it is more serious though. Unfortunately, culling animals at unexpected times is a part of what I do... that doesn't make it easier, just makes it a fact of life.
 
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TurnipTruck said:
Quote:
Email this link to your vet:
http://avianmedicine.net/publication_cat/avian-medicine/

It has this book:
Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications

Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications
Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison
This highly regarded was developed to provide a definitive reference text that blends the science of health with the art of clinical medicine.
By applying the information presented in the book, the competent avian practitioner will be able to effectively provide the highest quality care for his patients and guide the companion bird client or aviculturist in implementing and effective preventative health programme. Less experienced practitioners can learn basic evaluation, support and surgical techniques while developing an expanded understanding of advanced procedures that can be performed by specialists in avian medicine and surgery.
Avian Medicine: Principles and Application is the essential reference and the most comprehensive why to, when to and how to guide for companion and aviary bird management, medicine and surgery.
These are printable .pdf's: Click here to download Adobe Acrobat Reader
00ae.png
for free
Click to expand...
 
@TurnipTruck also send him this one:
http://avianmedicine.net/publication_cat/clinical-avian-medicine/

It has this book set:

Clinical Avian Medicine

Greg Harrison, DVM, Dipl ABVP-Avian, Dipl ECAMS and Teresa Lightfoot, DVM, Dipl ABVP-Avian, have compiled the expertise and experience of 50 international contributing authors (and 50 reviewers) to produce an extraordinary two-volume reference, with over 1000 pages of text and over 1300 color images, for veterinarians and other avian health professionals.
The purpose of the book Clinical Avian Medicine is to provide some highlights of emerging thoughts, techniques and procedures that are currently being assimilated into avian practice.
These are printable .pdf's: Click here to download Adobe Acrobat Reader
00ae.png
for free
 
TattooedMama said:
So we are off to a bad start. We did have 6 of 10 chick internally pipped last night. I made the decision that if the chick who had pipped Monday had not externally pipped I would assist. I found this appropriate especially as this one was a HUGE egg and the air cell was small. I figured the babe may just have grown too large too maneuver. I didn't want to lose anyone else. I intended to make a pip hole for the poult but couldn't discern where his beak was. I started directly in the middle of the air cell as he filled up each side. Slowly chipping away looking for a beak I could tell something was wrong. The poult had a crossbeak, a severe one at that. First all I could see was the bottom of his beak and I couldn't even locate the top. I finally did see it and the angle was too much, not only would it never have got out of the egg but it wouldn't survive. We decided to cull. We are down to 8 eggs now and it's DDay. Last night candling we decide to toss an egg. I didn't want to eggtopsy but something went wrong. There was no longer a clear air cell and the egg was filled with fluid, this was the other ginormous egg, undoubtedly from the same hen( possibly an see hen?) The air cell on this one was very much behind as well. It would appear the chick drowned.

I'm holding out hope for the others. Perhaps we will have some action by tonight but certainly by tomorrow. I did put the eggs in about 4pm on set day.
Click to expand...

Wow, you have had a hard time of it recently. I'm so sorry.

In poultry, cross beak at hatch can be caused by using the wrong incubation temperatures (usually too low), imbalanced diet of the hen, toxins (usually plants, fungus or drugs) that the hen may have eaten, and genetic defects. Hopefully this is just something with this hatch, and it never happens again. But it is important to keep good breeding records. If it happens again you may have to figure out if there is something genetic, and then figure out which bird has the problem.

I have never found it logical that the largest eggs are undesirable, but have been told that I should never set the overly large or the overly small eggs for hatching. I guess this is a good example of that principle, as you said that both eggs with problems were the giant ones.

Fingers crossed for the rest of your hatch.
fl.gif
 
Kathy,

Thank you so much for those links. I did not know that they were available free on-line. They are both excellent references, and quite expensive to buy. You can't put notes in the margins with online texts, but then again they're always available with any smart phone, so you don't need to carry around Ritchie's 10 pound volume. Thanks again.
--April.
 
These were shipped eggs, I don't have any grown turkeys. I had read about the low incubation temps. My chick hatch in July the babies were a day or two late. This time instead of the guideline 99.5, I set it at 99.8 to see if that helped the chicks to hatch on time. I really hope we get some poults out of this hatch. That would be a month lost, $$ and on top of that a lot of people are at the end of their birds laying cycle already. That would mean slim chance of anymore babies to grow out for next year. :hit


Sydney Acres said:
Wow, you have had a hard time of it recently.  I'm so sorry. 

In poultry, cross beak at hatch can be caused by using the wrong incubation temperatures (usually too low), imbalanced diet of the hen, toxins (usually plants, fungus or drugs) that the hen may have eaten, and genetic defects.  Hopefully this is just something with this hatch, and it never happens again.  But it is important to keep good breeding records.  If it happens again you may have to figure out if there is something genetic, and then figure out which bird has the problem. 

I have never found it logical that the largest eggs are undesirable, but have been told that I should never set the overly large or the overly small eggs for hatching.  I guess this is a good example of that principle, as you said that both eggs with problems were the giant ones.

Fingers crossed for the rest of your hatch.:fl
Click to expand...
 
Sydney Acres said:
Kathy, 

Thank you so much for those links.  I did not know that they were available free on-line.  They are both excellent references, and quite expensive to buy.  You can't put notes in the margins with online texts, but then again they're always available with any smart phone, so you don't need to carry around Ritchie's 10 pound volume.  Thanks again.
--April.
Click to expand...


You're welcome. We actually bought the CAM book set before I found the link and I must say that it's been one of the best investments I've made. Most of it is way over my head, so I just skim over that, lol, but the information on hydrating, temps of hospital cages and dosing info have probably saved a few of my peafowl. It also has some very practical information on taking patient history, which I often forget to do on my own birds! Great book set, no doubt! Planning on buying the other one, too.

-Kathy
 

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