Turkey Talk for 2014

[lwente]

Sorry guys.. Posted this on the wrong thread!

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote: Just waiting on weather to cooperate now. All of my stuff is stuck in storage almost 2 hrs away until we can get a u-haul u the driveway. Our car has only been able to get out the driveway 4-5 days in the past 5 weeks. We really need a 4wd truck.

Geezz, that's even worse!!

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Those are the three things I was thinking too. But for it to happen in three different breeds -- that's seriously unlucky. I wouldn't expect for the same person to get three different breeds all having the same genetic issue. And for incubation issues or dietary issues to be spread across three different breeds would be unusual, unless -- yes, this could explain it -- they were all obtained from the same original producer. Someone who incubates all the different breeds the same or feeds all the different breeds the same could have the same problem across the breeds. Or it could be some other unidentified issue, or it could be the calcium, in some way that is just not scientifically proven yet (at least not that I know of).

Over the years I've learned that everything I "know" may later be proven to be untrue, so it's important to keep an open mind, and to listen even if you disagree. Three very memorable things have taught me this. First, when I was in a high school biology class, my teacher had designed a test where the students went around the room and answered a question about each presentation. The first station was a small tree growing in a pot. The question was, "Does this organism have roots?" The possible answers (multiple choice) were yes, no, or I don't know. I answered yes. After the test was over we were told that it was a self-graded test that didn't effect our grade, and he went over the answers. The answer to the first question was revealed when he went over to the pot and pulled the tree branch, without any roots, up out of the soil. Simple as it was, that demonstration totally changed the way I looked at the world. Second, when I first enrolled in college my mother told me a joke, not really a funny one but an important life lesson. A retiring medical professor was giving a graduation speech to his last class of medical students. He said, "I have two confessions to make. First, half of everything I taught you is wrong. Second, I don't know which half!." It's true, knowledge is increasing every day, and sometimes new information replaces old information, so nothing is written in stone. Observations and "illogical" hunches can sometimes make significant contributions to science if they're researched. Third is an example of an "illogical" hunch that had a significant impact on veterinary medicine. A cat owner was referred to UC Davis vet school because her cat had dilated cardiomyopathy, a disease where the heart muscle is weak and gets so ballooned out that it can no longer contract effectively. At the time (~1985 I think), this was a very common disease, difficult to treat, almost always fatal within a few months of diagnosis, and the average busy vet hospital euthanized 1-2 cats every week because of it. The cat was seen by a resident in cardiology, Dr. Paul Pion. The cat's owner was a nurse, and as Dr. Pion tells the story, a rather "insistent" owner of strong opinions. When the cat was young she had fed it dog food instead of cat food, and the cat had gone blind when it was 2 years old. The veterinary ophthalmologist had diagnosed the cat with taurine deficiency, a well-know consequence of feeding certain dog foods to a cat (taurine is an amino acid that most species can produce on their own, but cats cannot produce it, so they go blind on taurine-deficient diets). So the owner switched to cat food and everything was fine until the heart disease was diagnosed. Because this dietary issue had happened to the cat 10 years ago, the owner insisted that the current heart problem had to be related. There was no logic in the association, but Dr. Pion could not convince her otherwise, and she was "VERY INSISTENT." So he searched everywhere to find a way to measure taurine levels in the blood, and found a university that was doing research on it (for a totally different reason, in a different species). The researcher agreed to run the test on this cat, and the results were low. So the cat was put on a taurine supplement, and the heart disease slowly resolved! That had never happened before in any other cat. So then all cats with cardiomyopathy that went to the university had their taurine levels tested, and they were almost all low. And they almost all got better when put on a taurine supplement! Long story short, cats only need a little taurine to keep from going blind, but some cats need a lot of taurine for normal heart function. That's why taurine-deficient blindness was never seen in cats fed cat food (which had low level supplementation at the time), but susceptible cats needed high levels of taurine, and could still get heart disease with low-level supplementation. So Dr. Pion published his research, used it to become board certified in cardiology, convinced all the cat food manufacturers to increase their taurine supplementation levels, became quite famous in the veterinary community, and essentially eliminated a disease that had previously killed thousands of pets every year, all because one animal owner came to some illogical conclusion and insisted that it be tested.

So yeah, I have a great education and "know" a lot of stuff, but that doesn't make me right. I've learned to listen, even when I disagree. Hopefully I never disagree too strongly, because I could later be proven wrong. And, more importantly, it's just disrespectful.

 

[Sydney Acres]

THe pelleting process has an effect on the feed that is generally regarded as negative. IT is a heat drying process to make the pellets and fines are a natural part of the process. How much fines are in the product varies. THere are trade offs with every kind of presentation, if you will of the feed. In horses they use molasses sprayed ont he outside to reduce the " dust" . I"m not longer convinced that pelleted feed is the best choice for optimal health in any animal. We are all lacking greens in our diet in sufficient quantitiy to improve our health. FOod for thought.
I know, you're right, but I just hate feeding dry mash so much. It's so messy, and my avian piglets gulp so quickly they choke and cough, and the water gets so slimy because there's powder all over their beaks when they drink and it comes off in the water. The true crumbles are only a little better than dry mash mess-wise, and are just pellets that have been broken up, so they're not any better than pellets health-wise (lots of companies mislabel their dry mash as crumbles, but the processing is different). The whole grains with the vitamin/mineral mix doesn't work well for me because the birds eat the grain and leave the powdered supplements on the bottom of the feeder. The dry mash only works well if I add water to it (they love it cooked like instant oatmeal for a few minutes with either hot chilies or fruit juice added for flavor), but I don't always have time to do that, and they tend to overconsume and get fat if I feed that too often. If I limit their portions than the dominant ones still get fat and the submissive ones don't get enough to eat. So even though I know it's not the best, I still feed pellets and hope that free ranging and lots of fruits and veggies as treats make up for what's lost in the pelleting process.

 

[K Epp]

Bigfoot...

Beside my sz 8.

 

[chickenman1962]

I agree wholeheartedly with you Sydney, and I hope my comments were not construed as being disrespectful to the original poster.
The fact that three different roosters developed curled toes after ingesting layer mash, does suggest that the affliction is diet based, if for no
other reason than the there exists no other known common link. Presuming the birds did not originate from the same breeder or source, it would
be difficult to arrive at any other conclusion.
Upon what type of bedding, if any I wonder, are the birds being reared? Are the curled/bent toes unique to only these three cockerels, or are there
any hens similarly affected? Have the deformities happened after similar lengths of exposure to, or ingestion of layer mash?
I just love a good mystery.


Kind regards,
Kevin

 

[chickadoodles]

Sounds like a plan!

I ordered 22% turkey and whole corn and oyster shell today. FOrgot to ask how many pounds in a bog of oystershell. Sure hope it is not a minisule 10# bag! lol

Have you read SUgar Mtn farm blog?? I love the attitude-- so counder to the hogs live in a production house and feed them milled pellets for maximum growth. WHo would have thought that with careful selection, and great care of the land providing a wide vareiety of vegetable based feed that pigs would thrive outdoors in Vermont of all places. I read thru his blog and created a list of veg he grows for the pigs, and he uses chickens to lay the eggs that the piglets need for higher protein diets. ( Maybe I already told you all this-- worth repeating for others. ) Totally changed how I view feeding my chickens. ANd my kids, and me, and my horses.

I feed my turkey 20-24% when I could find it and whole corn but not till they are old enough, the chickens all get corn as well.
I do not know who sugar mtn farm is.... Can you tell me? Is it someone on BYC? I did not know about the piglets eating chicken eggs. That is too funny!

 

[chickadoodles]

I agree wholeheartedly with you Sydney, and I hope my comments were not construed as being disrespectful to the original poster.
The fact that three different roosters developed curled toes after ingesting layer mash, does suggest that the affliction is diet based, if for no
other reason than the there exists no other known common link. Presuming the birds did not originate from the same breeder or source, it would
be difficult to arrive at any other conclusion.
Upon what type of bedding, if any I wonder, are the birds being reared? Are the curled/bent toes unique to only these three cockerels, or are there
any hens similarly affected? Have the deformities happened after similar lengths of exposure to, or ingestion of layer mash?
I just love a good mystery.


Kind regards,
Kevin

Hi Kevin, I was puzzled along time over my roosters feet. I got each of the roosters from different breeders so nothing in common there. I use pine shavings in the coop and they have roosts about 3' off the ground. I got the roosters at different times also. My leghorn was about a year old when I got the Welsummer rooster. And I got the EE rooster from a BYC breeder via hatching eggs. After I switched to grower finisher feed I did not think anything of it at first but starting hatching some birds trying to get it down so I know how. And most of the birds turned out to be cockerels. Several weeks apart in age but they are going on 6 months and youngest is abt. 1 month. And none of these cockerels have curled toes since I changed feed.

Like I said though my hens are still laying nice thick egg shells even the pullets that had just started laying this week. They are all healthy and happy.
I am not upset by anything anyone said about my feeding my birds. I just realized they are getting enough calcium from the feed they are getting.
I am working on some new pens and when I get all the roosters out of the hen run I will offer some oyster shells to see if the hens want any.

 

[chickenman1962]

My wife and I have decided recently to switch over from mash to pellets.
We made this decision after reading several comparative studies that suggest whilst pelleted feed may have some drawbacks, they are easily
overcome, whereas dry mashes on the other hand, have several shortcomings, few of which can be effectively managed.
It would seem that pellets, given to broiler types of fowl, is a high risk, high reward type of venture, with Ascites being the main concern. All things being equal, broilers raised on mash suffered significantly fewer losses to Ascites. It is thought that the increased efficiency of feed to weight was too great, causing much strain upon the liver and other internal organs.
What is unclear is whether this same rule would apply to layers and/or slower growing fowls. My hunch is that whilst it may have some effect, losses would be considerably more in line with those seen on a diet of dry mash. If I remember correctly, there is also a factor of timing to consider. Broilers given pellets from the beginning showed a higher incidence of Ascites than those that had been started on mash, then switched over to pellets after their 32nd day of growth.
For my wife and I, the cost of pellets, though more expensive, provide greater consistency in the even distribution of vitamins and minerals, provide greater feed to growth rates, and provide less waste than a diet of dry mash.


Kind regards,
Kevin

 

[chickadoodles]

I may try some pellets I have always used crumbles I don't know if they will work in our auto feeders. I will have to try it I guess. The feed I am thinking of using does come in pellets as well as crumble. And that may have something to do with my roosters curled toes. My birds do not waste feed any more. Since we got the deeper dishes for our auto feeders they are 6" deep and they cannot scratch it out of the dishes. It has really saved us alot on the feed bill. Since the PVC is wired to a post and stuck into the dish the birds cannot turn the dishes over either. But if they are eating the dust in the bottom of the bowl that may be a problem.
Thank you, Kevin