Turkeys For 2013

[Arielle]

Quote: NOt get attached?? NOt name???? We have had a few special birds. Thomas Edison a nd Mdms CUrie gave me a start in turkeys. Thomas is still around. TTHere first 4 sons cruised around the farm like the 4 Muskateers, then I sold one as a pet, leaving the 3 Amigos. One died in the breeding pen due to injuries fighting with his brother. Leaving the Two Buds. Only the special ones get names.

Cellie how do you remove spurs-- please don't say it is with a hot potato!

 

[desertmarcy]

If it was me, and I needed more than just the Auburns, I would keep a tom and include 3 Auburns poults in my order, but tell him I need at least 2 to be females, because he sent you 10 males last year! Breeders can guess pretty good at sex at hatching, like I do, but in a breeding program, hold back more females for their breeding program. 10 out of 10 males is an astronomical offset of averaging, for straight run, without sexing! Why can't you order the number of whatever you want to raise? A breeder should have at least 30 eggs hatching every 5 days from each breed, if he is going to be supplying his customers with good service! I was going to try ordering some from him, but not if I have to settle for a limit of 6 of a certain breed or accept a substitute, instead of what I order. Who is the customer and who is doing the servicing anyway? How small of an operation can only supply you with 6 and then expect you to buy 15, when that might be the only breed you want? I know a lot of people praise him and he probably have some nice birds, but most are cross breeds, from what I see and I know I some will want to tear me a new one for saying this, but he is not the only good hatchery around !

I might even still, buy a few, if someone around me wants to split an order, just for diverse genetic from a different line, but I wouldn't want any substitutes, not at his prices!

Hmmm....I have never thought of Porter's as a hatchery. I think he is more like a family business. He is not hatching out 100s or 1000s of birds like a big hatchery. I believe that is why he puts the limit on numbers. When you order from him, at least you know for sure your birds are going to be what he says they are. Hatchery birds can have hidden genetics that don't show up right away.
I disagree with you on sexing turkeys at hatch. No one sells sexed turkey poults unless they are a sexlink. Look at any big hatchery, the turkeys are always sold straight run. Porter states clearly on his website he has no control over the sex. I have seen it happen, straight run does not always guarantee 50/50 sex ratio. The 15 minimum is so they can arrive safely when shipped and not be chilled. Yes I am defending him. How long have you been raising turkeys? They are very expensive to raise correctly. Just like chickens, hatchery stock is CHEAP but what you get is not as good as from a dedicated breeder who takes care in picking breeding stock. Personally I do not order from big hatcheries anymore and am more than willing to pay a higher price from someone with quality birds. Just my opinion

 

[Celie]

I changed my shipping method to mark the box as above. THe last shipment went out from a PO I don't use very often. New to me guy behind counter replied to my quiry about h andling saying they go in with all the other priority boxes. My forced reposonse was that they are supposed to get special handling. He did n't know anything about that.

Box too a few extra days to arrive. Someone made sure it traveled correctly.

I usually go to two other po-- one is always very careful, and the other is now very careful after I educated them, very nicely, about the rules.

The special handling you mention is only with registered and overnight shipping and is about 3X the cost! I usually explain, to customer, before they place their orders, that I can not control how the package during transit any more than I can, but if something happens, put in a written complaint with their Postmaster, so they can investigate, include pictures and I will replace all damaged eggs if they will pay for just the postage, because usps will not refund postage, not even for the lady who saw and recorded the guy folding her stomped on box to smash it into her mailbox, before she could get to the street! Most reasonable people understand. I go a step further with duck and turkey eggs, because the number is fewer and the prices higher, if the notify me upon arrival. I either replace the damaged egg or refund the price of the egg, at my disgression. So far I have had only 1 turkey egg the PO managed to break, with my preferred shipping method. So if anyone swaps eggs with me this spring, let me ship to you first and please reuse the packaging to ship to me. I can't replace due to hatch rate or dislodged embryos, because no packaging can prevent that, but I did get turkey eggs from another BYC member, shipped standard shipping, nothing indicating they were fragile or perishable on the box, in a very flimsy Lipton tea bag box, which were scrambled before they made it out of his local po! I know that is not the way BYC People do business and he should know better. He had the nerve to say he ships like that all the time and never had any damages before!! HOGWASH!!!!! After he received the eggs I shipped, he said he was very impressed by the packaging, but didn't reship any eggs to me! So beware !
Most PO employee's brains are the size of a BB in a boxcar, but I have great PO in my local who are animal lovers and customers. I got a late delivery once on eggs and the postmaster brought them to me in her BMW, rather holding them overnight!

 

[Celie]

NOt get attached?? NOt name???? We have had a few special birds. Thomas Edison a nd Mdms CUrie gave me a start in turkeys. Thomas is still around. TTHere first 4 sons cruised around the farm like the 4 Muskateers, then I sold one as a pet, leaving the 3 Amigos. One died in the breeding pen due to injuries fighting with his brother. Leaving the Two Buds. Only the special ones get names.

Cellie how do you remove spurs-- please don't say it is with a hot potato!

No, I take a pair of small needle nosed vise grips. Open them to barely get a hold on the spur as not to crack it. Twist it gently back and forth and it comes off pretty easy in one piece, There is a drop of blood, but it doesn't seam to bother or hurt the bird at all, because they don't put up any fuss. The new, much smaller soft bpur is beneath the old one and will harden overnight. Someone on BYC taught me this. Works well and only needs to be done every 1 to 2 years. Saves the backs of many hens!


BTW, I started to read Porters web sight and it says: Sexing:

• All day-old poults are sold as straight run only. We do not sex any of the day olds. Since we do not sell sexed poults, we have no control over what you receive as far as a male-female ratio. Ideally, it is supposed to be a 50-50 ratio, but it can vary from that.
• I wonder who got the 12 hens? LOL I don't think his definition of the word "Heritage" Turkeys in his business and mine are the same. He has some nice looking pictures, from the pictures and like I said, if I could split an order with someone close, I might get a couple Midget Whites, Bourbon Reds, Nerrengsetts and maybe Beltsville small whites, but many others are his own crosses and not on the SOP birds. How are the real recognized breeds going to be preserved, like your Auburns, if every time someone puts 2 different breeds together, they want to call it a NEW HERITAGE BREED? Come on people, a mutt is a mutt! Mutts are beautiful, but they are still mutts. So breed them for your own use and interest, but stop trying to dilute the real HERITAGE breeds with them and call them what they are HYBRIDS aka, MUTTS !
  
  When the rest of you get as old as me you will be just as opinionated, too! LOL
  

 

[Celie]

Hmmm....I have never thought of Porter's as a hatchery. I think he is more like a family business. He is not hatching out 100s or 1000s of birds like a big hatchery. I believe that is why he puts the limit on numbers. When you order from him, at least you know for sure your birds are going to be what he says they are. Hatchery birds can have hidden genetics that don't show up right away.
I disagree with you on sexing turkeys at hatch. No one sells sexed turkey poults unless they are a sexlink. Look at any big hatchery, the turkeys are always sold straight run. Porter states clearly on his website he has no control over the sex. I have seen it happen, straight run does not always guarantee 50/50 sex ratio. The 15 minimum is so they can arrive safely when shipped and not be chilled. Yes I am defending him. How long have you been raising turkeys? They are very expensive to raise correctly. Just like chickens, hatchery stock is CHEAP but what you get is not as good as from a dedicated breeder who takes care in picking breeding stock. Personally I do not order from big hatcheries anymore and am more than willing to pay a higher price from someone with quality birds. Just my opinion

He is not a BIG hatchery, but since he hatches and sells to the public, he IS a hatchery! The reason he doesn't and other HATCHERIEY do not sell other than straight run, is because hatcheries would get orders for 4 females and 1 or 2 males, having a lot of extra males to dispose of BECAUSE no one can control what hatches out, except GOD! With chicks, the extra males are sold to pet food companies to become pet food, but turkeys don't lay as many eggs as chickens do and there are not as many turkeys around as there are chickens. I have been Breeding Heritage turkeys for 4 years and if I can sex them, hatcheries should be able to do so too. After all, I am not the ex sperts, they are ! What Heritage turkeys are Sexlink? The only ones I have heard of were HYBRID crosses? So please tell me, I would love a sex link real Heritage turkey breed? I am a dedicated breeder, dedicated to saving the endangered Heritage breeds, on the endangered lists and not trying to create dozens of cross breeds to sell to unsuspecting public, who think they are buying Heritage breeds, Just saying!

 

[Celie]

When I ordered I did tell him I was planning to breed these, which is why I was able to get far more than the max number of auburns. SO I was initally happy, until all survuving developed into toms. Several have gone to freezer camp. Leaving 6 for final inspection.

As far as substitution goes, that worked in my favor. THe two other breeds that I really wanted were already sold out for the season,but I put them in as subs. ANd then hoped he had exttras-- got the narrigansetts -- both toms!! So I was happy for the substitutes.

Full price is more than I care to splurge when they go for 6-7$ on sale, or they did that year, not sure about 2013. I didn't look or I would have been tempted!!


Generally all my birds seem to be good examples of their breed. THe 2 narri are almost identical and of the 6 Auburns I am struggleing with who stays and who goes. THe sweetgrass are beautiful.He does sell mixed breeds, they are listed as project birds-- are those the ones you are referring to??

If I"m going to do cross breds I think I would like a little BBW in the mix!!

You are lucky to get them on sale for $6 or $7, anywhere but your local feed store for the BBW, that's not the prices I see advertised! Maybe that was the "male only" price? LOL, only kidding.I will look again, but I didn't see many reconized Heritage breeds for sale, mostly his own crosses. The ones you bought are reconized breeds, so maybe tha is why he ran out of those? IDK

 

[Celie]

THis begs the question . . .

Auburns are supposed to be an old breed. If they are crossed with bronze are they still an old breed?Or is POrters site misleading and his birds are not from an old line of pure bred auburns???

( q open to anyone)

This is what I found on line, but I don't know is Porters got ahold of some of the original stock or is recreating his own version! It would be wonderful, if it was the original, because they are supposed to be one of the very rarest!

If any of his many defenders know for sure, please speak up!!!!

Auburn (turkey)

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The Auburn, also known as the Light Brown, is a breed of domestic turkey. A heritage turkey, the Auburn is one of the rarest varieties currently in existence. It has been referenced by name in written records since the 18th century, and is named after the light reddish-brown color of its plumage. There is also an extremely rare variant of the Auburn, called the Silver Auburn.
History[edit source | edit]

This is an old variety that was listed in receipts when transporting turkeys to markets in "turkey trots" during the late 18th and early 19th centuries in Philadelphia. They are sex linked and thus were important at the beginning of this century for producing poults that could be sexed at hatching. Cross-breedings of Auburn toms and Bronze hens were done to produce Bronze toms and Auburn hens thus making it quite easy to sex poults by color at hatch. However, this did not become a serious market requirement and they never became very popular. However when breeding auburns together only auburn colored poults will be produced in both sexes.
Auburn describes a variation in the typical bronze plumage color in which bronze is replaced with a red-brown pigmentation. At day of age, the Auburn poult resembles the Bronze but with black stripes replaced with a red-brown coloration. In the adult bird, the bronze pigmentation is also replaced by a red-brown color.The barring present in the primary and secondary flight feathers is red-brown and white in contrast to the black and white typical in the bronze bird.

 

[Celie]

I've ordered from him several times and he's never had to substitute any of the birds I wanted.. He told me once that he asks for substitutions in case he runs short on a specific type.. so if you asked for 6 Sweetgrass and said Chocolates would be acceptable as a replacement.. and when he got to filling your order he only had 5 Sweetgrass he would toss in a chocolate in order to get your order out instead of putting you off for a few more weeks..
You're always free to order from other hatcheries though.. I happen to like his birds and his service.. having gotten poults from other hatcheries I can honestly say I prefer the ones from Porters..

That would be ok if you were also ordering some Chocolates, but what do you do with only 1 Chocolate, if not? It takes 2 to made a pair. LOL

 

[desertmarcy]

Standard Bronze is the second largest American Heritage breeds, The hen might only weigh 25#s or so, but the Tom, should be about 45# at 17 months.

Actually the American Poultry Association SOP calls for 36 lbs for an old tom of the Standard Bronze and 20 lbs for an old hen.
25 lbs for a young tom and 16 lbs for a young hen. I have heard that not many judges weigh the turkeys anymore, but they are suppose to cut 2 points for each additional pound that is over 2 pounds beyond the standard weight. So your 45 lb tom would be cut 14 points out of a total 100 possible.

 

[Celie]

Keep in mind an Auburn tom with a bronze hen will give you Auburn hens and Red Bronze toms
thus they can be sexed at hatch.

I'll have to get a pic or two of our Auburn hens

RobertH

If you breed the Auburn hens and the red bronze toms will you get duplicates of the parents? Heritage breeds bred to themselves always turn out the same breed as their parents. Crossbreeds do not, because they are Hybrids. Both are turkeys and beautiful and delicious, but when you cross breed you will get a Hybrid, or in other words a cross bred turkey that will not breed true to their parentage generation after generation. You can breed a horse to a donkey, but you neither get a horse or a donkey,

you get a mule, they all have 4 feet tail, head, hair and can be ridden, but then that is too extreme an example. I have 2 cross breed dogs, Sire was a lab, Dame was another breed, the pups, even though they are still dogs, are not pure breeds, or Heritage breeds, they are cross-breeds or mutts. I still love them and enjoy their company,

but they could not be sold or shown as either breed and if bred, would not reproduce in like kind. If you sold one of your crossed sex link auburns, could you promise, if mated with an Auburn, would produce only Auburn offspring generation? Too many breeders are doing just that and giving Heritage Turkey breeders a bad name. I have over 4-5 years bred the best of my Holland Whites, to keep the genetics for that breed , increasing the breast size, rate of development, health, vigor and foraging skills as well as intelligence( for their little bird brains) to hear the guy down the road(who breeds a bunch of mutts) also has PURE HERITAGE TURKEYS, cheaper, when he has a couple BBW, HW, RP and some kind of slate cross, plus the crosses from these others randomly breeding and calling them fancy names like RED PIED GIANT ROYAL SLATES CHAMPIONS, VERY EXTREMELY RARE HERITAGE TURKEYS, FOR $10 AND HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS THEM, THEY ARE SO RARE! He has a bunch of inbred mutts!

, is what he has and when the public gets dooped, they think all turkey breeders are corrupted swindlers and we all suffer, because fewer people get to experience a truly delicious Heritage bird for their Thanksgiving dinner. The people who bred the APA Heritage turkeys put a lot of work into breeding thousands of turkeys to get the great birds we have today, just like the heritage chicken breeders and we should not let these breeds become extinct or deluded by calling every hybrid or cross breed a Rare Heritage Turkey! Breed your turkeys to fit your needs and/or the needs of others and enjoy playing with colors and genetics,

but call them what they are, MUTTS !

And my 2 REAGLE BLACK BEAUTY, QUEEN CELIE RARE HERITAGE ANGEL DOGS will agree with me. they are my lovably mutts! LOL
OK, I sturred it enough for today. My rant is over and I'll go to bed, now!


Originally Posted by desertmarcy

[kraws-breed, kros-] Show IPA verb, cross·bred, cross·breed·ing, noun American
verb (used with object)
1.
to produce (a hybrid); hybridize.

verb (used without object)
2.
to undertake or engage in hybridizing; hybridize.
noun
3.
a crossbred.
Origin:
1665–75; cross- + breed
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