Turkeys For 2013

[desertmarcy]

This is what I found on line, but I don't know is Porters got ahold of some of the original stock or is recreating his own version! It would be wonderful, if it was the original, because they are supposed to be one of the very rarest!

If any of his many defenders know for sure, please speak up!!!!

Auburn (turkey)

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The Auburn, also known as the Light Brown, is a breed of domestic turkey. A heritage turkey, the Auburn is one of the rarest varieties currently in existence. It has been referenced by name in written records since the 18th century, and is named after the light reddish-brown color of its plumage. There is also an extremely rare variant of the Auburn, called the Silver Auburn.
History[edit source | edit]

This is an old variety that was listed in receipts when transporting turkeys to markets in "turkey trots" during the late 18th and early 19th centuries in Philadelphia. They are sex linked and thus were important at the beginning of this century for producing poults that could be sexed at hatching. Cross-breedings of Auburn toms and Bronze hens were done to produce Bronze toms and Auburn hens thus making it quite easy to sex poults by color at hatch. However, this did not become a serious market requirement and they never became very popular. However when breeding auburns together only auburn colored poults will be produced in both sexes.
Auburn describes a variation in the typical bronze plumage color in which bronze is replaced with a red-brown pigmentation. At day of age, the Auburn poult resembles the Bronze but with black stripes replaced with a red-brown coloration. In the adult bird, the bronze pigmentation is also replaced by a red-brown color.The barring present in the primary and secondary flight feathers is red-brown and white in contrast to the black and white typical in the bronze bird.

Why don't you just email him from his website and ask him? I'm sure he would tell you if he is working with an old line or a recreation. However I would ask, why does it matter if the birds are genetically the same, breed true, and in every way are what an auburn should be?

 

[desertmarcy]

BTW, I started to read Porters web sight and it says: Sexing:

• All day-old poults are sold as straight run only. We do not sex any of the day olds. Since we do not sell sexed poults, we have no control over what you receive as far as a male-female ratio. Ideally, it is supposed to be a 50-50 ratio, but it can vary from that.
• I wonder who got the 12 hens? LOL I don't think his definition of the word "Heritage" Turkeys in his business and mine are the same. He has some nice looking pictures, from the pictures and like I said, if I could split an order with someone close, I might get a couple Midget Whites, Bourbon Reds, Nerrengsetts and maybe Beltsville small whites, but many others are his own crosses and not on the SOP birds. How are the real recognized breeds going to be preserved, like your Auburns, if every time someone puts 2 different breeds together, they want to call it a NEW HERITAGE BREED? Come on people, a mutt is a mutt! Mutts are beautiful, but they are still mutts. So breed them for your own use and interest, but stop trying to dilute the real HERITAGE breeds with them and call them what they are HYBRIDS aka, MUTTS !
  
  When the rest of you get as old as me you will be just as opinionated, too! LOL
  

As I posted before, there is an accepted definition of a heritage turkey. They don't have to breed true. You may like your personal definition but it is not the accepted one. Auburns breed true but are not an accepted variety by the APA. There are many beautiful varieties of turkeys that are not accepted varieties for showing purposes that still breed true. Midget Whites are not an SOP bird either, nor is the Chocolate. The term heritage for turkeys was coined to differentiate them from the broad-breasted monsters that constitute the commercial turkey industry.

 

[Celie]

Why don't you just email him from his website and ask him? I'm sure he would tell you if he is working with an old line or a recreation. However I would ask, why does it matter if the birds are genetically the same, breed true, and in every way are what an auburn should be?

A Diamond and a CZ both sparkle, but are not the same value. Junk and Antiques are both old, but junk is not valuable. Just saying!

 

[Celie]

As I posted before, there is an accepted definition of a heritage turkey. They don't have to breed true. You may like your personal definition but it is not the accepted one. Auburns breed true but are not an accepted variety by the APA. There are many beautiful varieties of turkeys that are not accepted varieties for showing purposes that still breed true. Midget Whites are not an SOP bird either, nor is the Chocolate. The term heritage for turkeys was coined to differentiate them from the broad-breasted monsters that constitute the commercial turkey industry.

There is politically correct, which is the accepted way to live and Morally correct, which is MY as you say "personal" way. Both definitions came from the same internet. Why do you think we have so many extinct animals today, and we spend so much $ to keep the last few alive? Raise your Politically acceptable ones, I will stay with the Morally accepted Originals, but you can still be my friend, anyway!

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Thanks for the technique on the spur removal!!

May of the "breeeds" he has are not what I consider a breed. THe AUburn is not SOP and I have often wondered why-- but then there is not enough turkeys of any kind making it to the shows. Without the numbers and the the paperwork to solicatet he APA for recognistion, it won't happen.

If birds are carefully selected and bred with a purpose inmind setting specific genes that are of value to the breeder that makes it a breed in about 5-6 generations; but in reality it takes a bit longer often much longer.

Mutts and cross breds have a purpose tha makes breeding (creating) them valid.

Quote: HE puts them on sale at the end of the season. I ordered at the end of June for and end of Aug shipment.

Quote: Size is out of control on a number of birds-- birds are winning that are well over the SOP for LF. THere was a little discussion on the LF thread sometime ago and walt chimed in on it.

WHile the SOP has value I personally don't let it be the only desicion maker I use. When the SOPs were written it was before the feed and management tools we have today. ANd I'm sure there is always a bird that is an exception in any population that if used in breeding those traits a re increased in the next genertation. We get to breed what we want. If it is to the SOP great, if not, great.

 

[Arielle]

In breeding anything looking at a long line of parents is important. IT tells about where the animal is genetically and where it is going and how we want to get there.

I think I can safely say that all domestic chickens and turkeys were developed by people breeding them purposely. Many of the breeds recognized today came from a mix of birds: RIR, and all the AMerican SOP chickens. They are no longer concidered a mutt. WHY?

WHen the Sussex became an organized group with a written SOP, they were lightyears behind other previously orgainized breeds and called mutts. Over the next 15 years, the breeders worked to improve the sussex and set the genes. TOday we do not call them mutts but are a recognized SOP breed.

Delawares-- Kathy IMO has built a new line and is only a few generations itno this project.She put together two breeds and get kudos from the likes of Robert BLosl and Walt Leonard. Are these mutts? OR purposely bred birds? Early on the term seems to be "project" birds but in howmany generations do they become a breed.

Cross breeding is a valid an duseful tool. Faster growth and increase healthy and a host of other positives.

THis method can also be used to re-invigorate a line. Either finding a related line many generations isolated, or adding in a parent breed from the beginning of the breed development; or adding an unrelated breed that has the gene characteristics tha could benefit a line and then select heavily for many generations.

POrters has a huge variety of birds that breed true. IMO most are a color that breeds true. THe SOP birds IMO must be from old stock. But given the propensity to develop all these gorgeous true breeding colors, without asking there is no way to know what breeds were used to make them-- probably a combination given the change in coloring. I'm not dissing Porters. He provides a great resource. I"m mearlu pointing out that I am no longer sure that the AUburns are pure given the situtaion.

Buff--- carefully read this. I read that this bird died out and was re-created. IT may be buff by color but it cannot be the original bird withit's own unique genetics and history of selection and exposure to climate and disease and selection by humans that made it unique from the others.

WHen is a bird just his colors? IMO a bird is how well it grows, what climate it is adapted to, the hardiness to with stand disease . . . . no one talkes about this.

As for selling /buying birds-- stick to your ethics of a moral seller , it will pay off. . If you treat a customer well, they will return. THose that feel dupped or cheated will not return. Buyers beware, get educated. ANd getting educated is a painful experience. Make use of what you learn. THis is part of life.

I hve lost sales in birds and horses because I was honest and up front. When I met a woman who told me not to do that, just tell enough to tease the buyier into wanting the animal-- she was in house sales.

That explained everything-- they are like car salesmen. NOT my cup of tea.

 

[desertmarcy]

Arielle, very well put in your last post. To be a breed (or actually in the case of poultry, "variety" since all the turkeys are one breed), the bird has to breed true---produce offspring that have the same characteristics. Yes cross bred turkeys can be considered mutts because they do not breed true. However the term "heritage" in turkeys was meant to describe something else versus the term used in chickens and as I understand it, the definition of a "heritage chicken" is still being debated. So strange as it sounds, you can have a mutt turkey and it can still be heritage. What it won't be is a pure breeding variety or one that can ever be accepted in the APA.

What you say about the Buff turkey is a good point. There is more to a variety than color. Over time, all livestock will change somewhat according to their environment, what they are fed and which individuals are kept for future breeding and so forth. My turkeys, for instance, I expect over time will be better adapted to the heat. Those that aren't will not thrive here and I won't be using them for breeders.

I read through that discussion on the Large Heritage Fowl thread about size in chickens being shown. Remember there was also discussion about exactly why certain weights were considered ideal. With turkeys, if you breed them too big, you will lose that heritage quality of being about to breed naturally. The heritage turkeys are not supposed to be that big. Might as well raise broad-breasted turkeys

 

[yinepu]

Quote:
well.. it could be because I did have other chocolates at the time (he didn't substitute on any of my orders though).. but if he HAD substituted i already had chocolates in my flock.. so a new bird would have been a "happy accident" if he had needed to substitute.. and I'm sure I'm not the only person who wouldn't mind if he had to send me one of a poult I already had...

On another note... I have met several people who collect different colors of birds.. so maybe someone would be happy with just one of an unusual color.. The woman in Lampasas who raises turkeys and emus came to mind.. I think she has one of every color in her "rainbow flock".. she never hatches out eggs instead she cooks them or gives them away to her family for eating, so in her case she has no need for "purebred" eggs ... I also see "collectors" a lot in the chick threads.. where they want a rainbow flock of birds and will order one of several different breeds of chickens to have a colorful flock.. so I know there are turkey people like that as well..

of course there is always freezer camp.. which is where all of my older birds go eventually...

 

[yinepu]

Hmmm....I have never thought of Porter's as a hatchery. I think he is more like a family business. He is not hatching out 100s or 1000s of birds like a big hatchery. I believe that is why he puts the limit on numbers. When you order from him, at least you know for sure your birds are going to be what he says they are. Hatchery birds can have hidden genetics that don't show up right away.
I disagree with you on sexing turkeys at hatch. No one sells sexed turkey poults unless they are a sexlink. Look at any big hatchery, the turkeys are always sold straight run. Porter states clearly on his website he has no control over the sex. I have seen it happen, straight run does not always guarantee 50/50 sex ratio. The 15 minimum is so they can arrive safely when shipped and not be chilled. Yes I am defending him. How long have you been raising turkeys? They are very expensive to raise correctly. Just like chickens, hatchery stock is CHEAP but what you get is not as good as from a dedicated breeder who takes care in picking breeding stock. Personally I do not order from big hatcheries anymore and am more than willing to pay a higher price from someone with quality birds. Just my opinion

I think the bottom line comes down to this..

If you like Porters birds then buy from him..

If you don't like his practices or his birds or anything else about his hatchery then go somewhere else! no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to force them to order from him!...


Personally I love Porters birds and I can accept his policies.. I have never gotten a bad shipment from him. His prices are as fair as any other place I have gone (better in some cases for the quality of the birds) and I love the fact that he understands the genetics of his birds.. MOST other hatcheries have no clue as to the genetics and just don't care!
Any time I have ever contacted him to ask a question about his birds he has been quick to reply and was extremely helpful.. I can't say the same for some of the other places I have dealt with.. other than that I have found his poults to be extremely healthy and personable..

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
well.. it could be because I did have other chocolates at the time (he didn't substitute on any of my orders though).. but if he HAD substituted i already had chocolates in my flock.. so a new bird would have been a "happy accident" if he had needed to substitute.. and I'm sure I'm not the only person who wouldn't mind if he had to send me one of a poult I already had...

On another note... I have met several people who collect different colors of birds.. so maybe someone would be happy with just one of an unusual color.. The woman in Lampasas who raises turkeys and emus came to mind.. I think she has one of every color in her "rainbow flock".. she never hatches out eggs instead she cooks them or gives them away to her family for eating, so in her case she has no need for "purebred" eggs ... I also see "collectors" a lot in the chick threads.. where they want a rainbow flock of birds and will order one of several different breeds of chickens to have a colorful flock.. so I know there are turkey people like that as well..

of course there is always freezer camp.. which is where all of my older birds go eventually...
I actually like a rainbow of colors In turkeys and chickens. As broodies went awol and returned with chicks, the variety of colors was amazing. Add silver laced wyandottes and black sexllink roosters (barring) to the mix of black, blue, reds and buffs and the result is lovely. ONe of my favs was a gold barred rooster-- think buff orp with barring. Another was a red laced hen. THEn there are all the crosses to get wonderful egg shell colors.