UPDATE!!! Please Help! Twisting backward neck....URGENT!!!! PLEASE!!

[threehorses]

Well I'm coming into this very very late, and there are so many different posts - I'm not sure exactly where to start.

I did want to clear up two matters, first.

First - botulism never ever causes wry neck. It causes neck flaccidity and paralysis. Anything that the bacteria of botulism touches, it causes limp paralysis - never tightening or contractions of muscles, which would characterize wry-neck, otherwise known as torticollis. When symptom searching, search for torticollis.

Second, please never sprinkle antibiotics. They're never to be used in any amount other than the full strength for the full number of days otherwise you will cause MORE bacteria to bloom than you had before, and they'll now be resistant to this drug.

Teddiliza, please email me or PM me privately - or start another thread and do please let me know where it is (Email or PM) so that we can help you. Your bird likely has something completely different. Do not take thi sadice exactly. And do NOT start duramycin for pneumonia. It's ineffective. I hope to hear from you. Besides you can't use duramycin and yogurt together.

OK, this bird. The blood was likely from the antibiotic use. Antibiotics, misused, cause good bacteria to die and bad to bloom. That causes irritation of the gut and thus blood.

What exactly are you doing now? What is she eating, what vitamins exactly is she getting? Does she have any swelling of her wattles? Has her crop emptied completely? The original twisting was likely her trying to get the crop contents to pass completely. Have they?

If you give her a 'cillin drug, please tell us which one so that we can get you a good dosage. And incidentally, the amoxicillins are very hard on digestive tracts and I would NOT recommend them for chickens as chickens are not dogs and cats! THey have totally different systems. Tetracycline is weak and really doesn't cover anything effectively any more on its own, certainly not in the dosages people choose to give their birds. It can be more effective when combined with another medicine.

I'd be more suspect of cholera (pasteurella) if there were any respiratory symptoms or any swelling of the face/wattles combined with wry neck. And so if you give an antibiotic, what exact disease are you treating?

First, I would do vitamins daily. Polyvisol offers a nice range of the oil vitamins without being in the water or exposed to air. 3 drops of the baby vitamins (without iron) daily in the beak. I would also continue a FULL tablet of a B-complex vitamin daily. As well as a 400 to 800 IU capsule of vitamin E daily - both for its effects against bad bacteria (the blood in her stool), its anti-inflammatory properties (Possible neurological involvement, her neck), and anti-oxidizing properties.

I would give her yogurt daily because of the stress - but NOT if you give any 'cycline or 'mycin medicine. It will cause the meds not to work. In that case, give a probiotic capsule's contents instead, or Probios powder from the feedstore.

If you choose for some reason to give a 'cillin, I'd recommend penicillin infections so that you don't further irritate the digestive tract. Avian systems are highly dependent on bacteria in the lower intestinal regions to digest the otherwise indigestable woody plant products they eat as a staple. (That's why dogs and cats can do better on oral 'cillins than do brids, whose digestive tracts are drastically effected by them). When you give an antibiotic, it will kill the good bacteria and cause a secondary fungal infection - which compounds the problem my causing diarrhea, lack of nutrition, and vitamin deficiencies. So inject 'cillins, feed mycins and other things orally.

If you try an antibiotic, try one that has an effectiveness against pasteurella since the wry neck could be from that.

Honestly were she my bird, I'd first really hit all the B vitamins and the E and the polyvisol for a week and let that take effect. It won't happen overnight. It may be that you'r ejust now seeing the B effects, particularly if the birds' foot/feet curl at all or if she sits on her hocks.

 

[dlhunicorn]

I dont find much basic info (housing/weather conditions (has it been wet/raining there?) / treats (chick and make sure NO salt!) what for bedding material do you use?

When you have a bird with a crook neck symptom it can be from several things... even when there is not a deficiency per se of selenium/vitE or B vitamins when you see this symptom always use the aforementioned as this will help against permanent neurological damage. selenium/vitE combo will also help with mycotoxin or any other toxin (lots of research on that).
I am wondering if you have hay/straw as a bedding material near your birds? If so get rid of it. Also completely clean yor coop and remove all bedding material and replace it (often fungal and or mycotoxin in bedding or something the bird has eaten which has spoiled or through becoming wet has developed a problem) is at the root of this symptom).

As far as the blood goes it might well be cappillaria (worms ) as this is often the cause of bloody droppings . Worm your bird appropriately if you have not done so.

Often at this time of year after the heat stress of summer the birds will have a weak immune system (heat stress causes them to eat less so there is often borderlin deficiencies if you have not given a general supplement during the summer) > in this weakened state the birds at this time of year can easily become ill from things their immune system normally is perfectly capable of dealing with. A weakened bird will also easily become overwhelmed from worms.

Keep your ill bird in a TEMP STABLE and warm area... then its system wont have to deal with temp swings and recovery will go faster. Yes, whatever is causing the wry neck > it often takes at least three weeks (and oftne more) for the bird to fully recover. Look for the COMBO vitE/selenium ... the pills of "just" selenium is not the selenomethionine (the right kind) but a type of inorganic selenium... this has been found to be inappropriate really as the bird can only utilize up to 30% (and god knows what happens to the rest as selenium is retained). The (organic-based)selenium in the combo gel tabs is easier to absorb and easier on the birds system. You should not give daily except maybe for the first five days in extreme (deficiency) situations as it is retained and as others have correctly stated , selenium has a very narrow therapeutic margin (meaning it is easily overdosed at a certain point and in that case can actually exacerbate the wryneck symptom) .

As far as the amoxicillin > this is a very commonly used antibiotic in Avian medicine( > preferably potentiated with clavulic acid > this product is clavomox) > for penicillin (resistance issues) should also be potentiated > this product is PenG... this is quite acceptable for birds and in fact is the antibiotic of choice for injuires (see :
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/august/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Assessment.html
AVIAN WOUND MANAGEMENT
excerpt summary on TREATMENT measures:
"....Analgesia and antibiotics - broad spectrum antibiotics can be provided in the first instance: clavulanic acid potentiated amoxycillin (150mg/kg orally or subcutaneously) will provide cover against most aerobes and anaerobes. ..."

http://myweb.cableone.net/searl/IWC/Selected Diseases of Racing Pigeons.htm
Chalmers-DVM
"Amoxicillin trihydrate (Commercial names: Amoxil, Amoxi-drops, many others)
Description: Amoxicillin is a semisynthetic analogue of penicillin with a broad range of bactericidal activity against many Gram positive and Gram negative bacteria.
Usage: Amoxicillin can be used with any bacterial infection showing susceptibility to the drug.
Adverse reactions: None seen with any frequency...."

http://www.oldworldaviaries.com/text/styles/antimicrobials.html
Darrel K. Styles, DVM
Schubot Exotic Bird Health Center
Texas A&M University
(common antibiotics in Avian Medicine)

http://www.ivis.org/advances/harrison_2/chap17.pdf
Avian Medicine ch.17
"Penicillins
Characteristics: The penicillins are beta lactam antibiotics.
They inhibit the formation of the bacterial
cell wall and are bactericidal for growing and dividing
organisms. The spectrum and route of administration
vary with the generation of the product. Older agents,
such as ampicillin and amoxicillin, are effective
against many gram-positive and some gram-negative
organisms, and are available in oral and injectable
formulations.
.... In a severely ill patient, or in one that has an infection in an area that is difficult to culture, it may be necessary to start treatment without the benefit of a
culture and susceptibility test. In these cases it is helpful to know the common causes of infection and the antimicrobial drugs most likely to be effective....
...A summary of the susceptibilities of common avian infectious agents to antimicrobial therapy is given inTable 17.2.....
Sub-therapeutic treatment can encourage the development of resistant bacteria. If low antibiotic concentration is achieved at the site of infection (such as
typically occurs with water-based treatment regimes), only the highly susceptible bacteria will be killed. The remaining resistant bacteria will then multiply to use the space and nutrients formerly consumed by the susceptible bacteria....Sub-therapeutic or random non-specific treatment would be considered worse than no
treatment at all if resistant bacterial strains are generated at the same time normal alimentary tract flora is reduced.

Comments:
Gastrointestinal upset is most commonly assoc with Fluoroquinolones (enrofloxacin/ciprofloxacin)

A corticosteroid is usually administered to prevent
endotoxic shock due to degenerating gram-negative bacteria.

Apparent failure of an appropriate drug is usually due to the fact that it is administered in the water (bird fails to drink enough to achieve the necessary therapeutic dosage to be effective against the orgnism). >Tetracyclines degrade rapidly in water(thus in theory effective but the problem may lie with the administration route choice). This administration route method is particularly assoc with resistance issues.

>Powders, ground tablets and oral suspensions can be added to a palatable food
(very important that enough water intake alongside this admin. route though)

WHEN IN DOUBT > DON'T !!!!

 

[zowieyellowflame]

Wow! Thanks for the imput!
I am going to do a quick response right now, I am on my way to work this morning. (keep in mind I am caring for this chicken while working/commuting this week during a 59 hour week!) I am exhausted, I have forgotten to write a couple things and a bit of incorrect info.
The water soluable antibiotic is actually a water soluble vitamin premix medicated with penicillin G potassium and streptomycin sulfate. It is called Super Booster and is for chickens, turkeys, swine and calves. Not ammoxilin.... not sure why I said that.
The novo-doxylin was an rx for a human. doxycycline Hyclate 100 mg. I sprinkled... yes sprinkled a bit on the last 2 days. I didn't know how else to measure it, and I was very close to culling this girl, I figured it was worth a try. It is important to note that THE BLOOD WAS BEFORE THE ANTIBIOTICS and there were about 3 small droppings with blood in it, just during 1 day, her worse day.
So there, novo doxylin for 2 days, water soluble penicillin for 24 hrs so far, vit E 800 mg per day for about 4 days, seleinium 25 mc per day for 4 days. The selenium is seperate, I guess the wrong kind. It was all I could find. Maybe I shoul quit the selenium?
The bedding... oh geez. I am going to make some unhappy people. I use straw. Lots of family members like straw, I am a bit allergic to the wood shavings and I like how easy it is to clean up. THE BEDDING IS DRY. VERY DRY. We keep it very clean, infact just 1.5 weeks ago we doubled the size of the coop to be 8 by 8 for 19 birds. (this seems adequate, the ceilings are 8 feet high and opens up to the shed.... lots of air movement. They have a run that is probably 35 by 20 ish outdoors. It is cold and dry here now. I let them out when it is dry..... nearly everyday and they stay in when it is wet. Nights are down to about 0, days about 8 or 10 celcius.
Another bad thing I do.... I think is I throw feed and scratch (mostly feed) around on the ground to the chickens. I imagine sometimes they eat food that is exposed to bacteria. I have meant to get a dish but they seem to like to search and scratch for it. Treats are swiss chard, spinach, koholo rabi leaves.
Their water is very clean with organic apple cider vinegar.
Oh gee, I am late for work, I will try to add more later if I think of anything.

 

[zowieyellowflame]

oh and I just started a b complex last night and she gets watermelon everyday. this morning she is good, had spasms for maybe 3 min.

 

[zowieyellowflame]

It is 6 pm, no spasms. Just a little more info.....
The first night, Monday, her crop was full and felt like there was string or stringy material was in there, Tues am it was smaller, and somewhere along the way, it has cleared. Maybe the stringy fibrous material of swiss chard stocks (we try to remove much of the stock but some still gets in) or the koli rabi. Maybe this resulted in the short term bloody stool?
I forgot to mention too that she is on grower, she is still eating that, though I doubt she is eating as much as normal.
Tonight, maybe I will skip the selenium, since it seems to be the wrong one, but I will do the vit E, 400 mg, a whole vit b tablet crushed, and I am uncertain about the novo doxylin and the penicillin water.
I would love it if someone could suggest the proper dose of the novo doxylin (tetracycine) and how I could measure it and if I should continue it?

 

[dlhunicorn]

why not separate this ill bird (NOT using straw > use cardboard sheet to line whatever yo separate him to and perhaps a couple sheets of newspaper on top of that (easy to just remove a sheet daily).

Here is an online source of the vitE/selenium > I put a geltab in with a bit of cooked oatmeal once every two weeks for my 13 birds )
(just as example of online product> there might be cheaper offers)
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GG87L2...e=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B000GG87L2

(the selenium product you now have you can take yourself once or twice a month)

If you suspect e.coli then a sulfa drug is the one to go with and not an antibiotic.
Personally , I would not continue the tetracycline at all.

 

[zowieyellowflame]

dlhunicorn, Yes, she has been separated since Monday. She has her own room in my basement, no straw there, just newspaper.
Today is the best day yet..... no spasms, just stretching, yawning, eating and even
"flight lessons"! Very exciting, my fingers are crossed.

 

[zowieyellowflame]

She continues to improve. fingers crossed!

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
Wonderful news! Keep up the good work and do, please, continue to let us know how it goes.

 

[zowieyellowflame]

Well,
Now I am confused. I went down to the basement tonight, she would not eat most of her egg mixture. (that were laced with vitamins) All she wanted to do was escape her very large, comfortable enclosure and several times she did despite my efforts to enclose the forte. She seems all better now, regarding twisted neck, spasms but she does not seem to eat enough. Her crop was small tonight, about the size of a grape? No bigger than a plum.
Because of her insistance of escape, I have thrown in the towel. I can't keep doing this..... I have just begun another 58 hour week and tomorrow I will be gone 13 hours.
I took her out to the coop, I turned out the lights, placed her on a roost near her sisters and then I turned on the light. I watched for 20 min or so, they pecked, and gave her a bit of a hard time for about 5 min or so. Then as I was about to leave, I turned out the light. I watched her barge her way to the centre of the group to the warmest, safest place. I think she will be ok for the night. I would have kept her in, at my husbands dismay for another 4 days but I could not deal with the escaping problem.
I am a little concerned about her not eating a lot, her small crop at night and I think she has actually lost a bit of weight, judging by the size of the others. I don't think she would have done well in the basement all alone, so maybe this will make her feel normal again. I will continue the vitamin therapy for another week, maybe 2. The penicillin course is all done, I think I will stop the other one too.
Anyways,
Thanks everyone for your concern, advice and thought....
Tanya