UPDATE: YAY! Doin' It In Saint Paul MN

[Whitewater]

Well, we've taken the plunge

We've got a coop design, decided on the birds (3 teenage Australorps from a 'farmlette' -- the breeder's word -- 35ish minutes north of us) and will hopefully have the coop built and the birds delivered in 13 weeks.

That is, if we get the permit process done in time! LOL! I have no idea how long it will take. The first thing to do is to send a letter explaining what we want to do to our neighbors that are within 150 feet of our property line. We need 75% approval from them, and their *written* permission on a slip of paper that Animal Control keeps on file.

So, 1st thing to do is send out the letters and the forms, which will happen this weekend, once I get the stamps and so on. I'll provide a self-addressed stamped envelope for our neighbors to return the signed permission slip back to us (makin' things easy!).

Next, we'll have to build the coop. It's not enough to have a design on paper, we have to have an actual building for the Animal Control guy to see. That will be time consuming, but the design doesn't look too difficult (I know how to frame, have a bit of building experience), particularly if we get help. We mentioned in our neighbor letter that we have professional plans (true) and have a professional carpenter (also true, actually, 2 carpenters and an architect! I've got friends and in-laws, har har!) ready to help us build, which hopefully will make more people say yes.

After that, we fill out the Application for Permit that includes information about us, our property, and our chickens, and pay the $25 fee. Then, if nothing negative has happened (less than 75% of neighbors, the inspector hates our coop, etc) we get our chickens and our permit. After that, we pay $15/year for our 3 hens.

Of course, if we want to change our breed or how many hens or whatever, we'll have to get a new permit, but hey, that's life. And 3 hens will be enough to begin with, I'm sure!

The biggest issue is getting permission from our neighbors, and I have to call Animal Control to ask them if permission is assumed from vacant houses, there's at least three within 150 ft. And if we have to go across our alley for permission, etc. Which I will do tomorrow!

The letter I sent out gives some good info about a small flock of hens (health benefits of eggs, healthy, less poop, quiet, etc) and basically says 'Please help, I want organic chicken eggs to help manage my chronic issues, I need your permission, you can have our extra eggs', hope it's enough. It's only one page long.


So cross your fingers, I'll post updates on the process as things happen. Who knows, maybe somebody else from Saint Paul will read this

Whitewater

 

[Whitewater]

I talked to an Animal Control officer today via phone and she said that while we don't have to worry about our neighbors across the road (and I would hope not, we have a nice wide street . . . ), we *do* have to worry about the neighbors across the alley. She gave me the addresses that I needed 75% permission from, and I said, 'Oh, but two of those houses are vacant' and she said, 'Really?' and I was like, 'Yep -- now what?'

She said that her supervisor would probably ok the permit anyway, so long as if and when people move into those home, I get *their* permission at that time. Obviously a vacant property isn't going to get annoyed, or whatever.

So, score one for a future chicken owner. It's not a big victory, but hey, every little bit counts.

So, now we only need three of our neighbors to say yes, which is a reasonable expectation. We are acquainted with the people directly behind us (across the alley, they're nice), the people directly to our east (also nice, a young couple with a dog), and the people directly to the west (a divorced mom with 3 teenage/college boys, not so friendly but polite nevertheless, she likes our dogs!). Here's hoping they all say yes!


Whitewter (more updates as events warrant)

 

[Whitewater]

Two of my neighbors (the ones on the immediate w side and the ones immediately s across the alley) have said YES!!!

Yay!!

Now I just need one or two more and we're good to go

I sent out a letter (along with a permission form that I created, because that needs to be on record in our file with Animal Control) to my neighbors along with a self-addressed stamped envelope (to make it easy to mail the form back, everything's done for them!). The letter basically reminded our neighbors who we were, told them why we wanted to have chickens (in my case, it's to help my health by providing better eggs!), let them know our basic plans (no roosters, professional coop plans, 3 hens, etc) and some of the health benefits of backyard eggs as well as reassuring facts about the smell and safety, etc -- and that if we had any extras, we'd give the eggs to our neighbors in exchange for their permission -- and let them know why we were involving them -- that I couldn't have chickens without their permission, hence the form.

It seems to be working, I dropped the letter and form in their mailboxes on Thursday and have already gotten two responses, both 'yes'.

This makes me feel much better about going to the people who have our chicks in 2 weeks and giving them their (non-refundable) 50% downpayment!!! (the deal is, they're keeping the chicks for us until they're teenagers and able to live in a coop outside, we pay extra for this service per hen -- $15, might be a bit much, but A) I couldn't find anybody else who had Australorps and B) it seems a fair price, $1/week/bird for them to raise them, after all, there are costs involved in doing so -- and pay half right away and half when we have a permit and a coop and actually come to get them and take them home).


Whitewater

 

[Whitewater]

Well, things have stalled out in our process, I'm afraid. We're still looking for that one neighbor to give us permission, but now I'm pretty convinced that it's going to have to be a 'build the coop first' and PROVE our hens won't be a nuisance sort of thing . . .

The plan now is to build the coop, get a recording of chicken noise, and play it inside the coop at a typical volume. Hopefully nobody will even notice!! Then we can go to the neighbors with a stronger position and ask them for their permission again. Can you tell I really want this to work out?

I'm sure the hesitant neighbors are hesitant due to the fact that nobody's tried this before, around here, aside from a family of total jerks who really didn't know what they were doing and did it all wrong (who now have a pit bull puppy that as it gets older now shows signs of dog aggression, and they don't have a fence on their property so the dog wanders wherever it wants . . . and somebody just moved in next door to them with a small Jack Russell . . .it's a good thing my Standard Poodles are behind a stout 4' high fence! anyway, I digress . . . ) -- the jerks *are* moving in a week or two and will take their dog with them, but last year they had a totally free-ranging chicken of some sort and people called Animal Control because apparently it was crowing too much. I still don't know if it really was a full-grown rooster, it didn't make that much noise to *me* (anyway, we are across the alley from where the chicken typically hung out. I heard it, but I didn't hear anything that sounded like the stereotypical 'cock-a-doodle-do' noise . . . ) but the free-ranging thing really was quite annoying, I was always worrying about it getting into my garden and eating my plants and veggies! At the time I didn't know enough about chickens to even tell what breed it was. Now, looking back in my memory, I suspect that it was a very young Barred Rock rooster without a fully developed crow. We cannot have roosters in the city, they're against the law, so even if it was quiet, the jerks were still breaking the law!!! Not to mention poor chicken management . . .

I'm hoping that by building a coop our neighbors will see proof that our hens won't be running around free into their yards, like that one chicken the jerks had. Maybe that will help change their minds. Also, building the coop will hopefully allow them to actually see that it's not going to be some giant, nasty, *thing* in our nice neighborhood . . . it's funny, the position of the coop in our yard means that most of the neighbors won't be able to see it from their yards -- yes, we did that deliberately. But they're still all worried.

I think we're going to have to *prove* to the neighbors, beyond a reasonable doubt, with stuff that they can not only see and hear, but inspect with their own two hands, that *our* chickens won't be like the jerk's rooster, before we get that final 'yes'. I consider it neighborhood education about backyard chicken keeping

There's nothing like personal experience!

Anyhow, we're going up to the farm that has our birds on May 1st to put down a 50% deposit (which we will *not* want back, even if it turns out that we won't be able to pick the birds up due to no permit, seems like the least we can do, particularly if everything goes belly-up) and choose our hens. I am crossing my fingers that the people who bred and are raising our hens can help us pick out the three most quiet hens they have!!! I'm also hoping at that time to get the recording, so I can play it out back. The birds were born March 9th, so they'll be 8 weeks old, in that scrawny teenager stage.

(The only thing I worry about now is that we may wind up in a fait accompli situation, having to get the birds *first* in order to get the neighbors to give their permission, and I have no idea what Animal Control would say about that! They have to come out and inspect the coop prior to issuing the permit . . . what a surprise, to find chickens already there . . . I suppose I could put the chickens in a box in the house (or in the bathroom, or something) for a few hours and clean up the coop to make it look new for the AC person's visit . . .)

I suspect it would be a lot easier to just go ahead and be an outlaw, but the neighbors called the Animal Cops on the jerk's single rooster a year ago . . . clearly somebody out there is capable of doing it again. And I really don't want to deal with the consequences -- keeping chickens illegally here is a misdemeanor!

Ah, the joys of government hoop-jumping . . .



Whitewater

 

[amsunshine]

Good luck to you. I'm in a similar situation, with the 150 foot thing, not sure about permissions though. In our case there has to be a variance hearing, far from here. All my neighbors were initially on board and now one is being difficult.

What's not to say you build them an indoor paradise and have your chix as inside pets? Not ideal...but sometimes neighbors are just squirrely!

 

[Whitewater]

Well, tonight my darling, fearless husband (who strangers tend to really like upon first meeting -- Hubby makes a very good first impression on *everybody*, it's like magic!) bearded some more neighbors while they were outside shooting hoops in their driveway and lo, those neighbors were quite supportive of our endeavour.

Trouble is, they (we call them the MinPin Guys because we *still* don't know their names) don't want to make our neighbors directly to the east (with whom we share a fence) upset. The Min Pin Guys don't want to tick off the Eastern neighbors, because they live directly across the alley from the Eastern folks and talk to them every once in a while, they're aquaintences. Which I get, but it seems odd to me that the Min Pin Guys would worry so much about a neighbor across the alley from them. But then, I have Asperger's and often don't understand the way people think!

Min Pin Guy did say that he's willing to talk to Eastern Guy on our behalf and see what happens. I think Min Pin guy really likes the fact that we're doing everything properly with the city (yes, the subject of Jerk's rooster came up!) and that we're willing to let his kids come over when we're home and see (possibly pet, if the Australorps are docile and friendly enough) the hens.

Min Pin Guy also seemed a lot more comfortable with agreeing to us having chickens once he heard that *his* direct neighbors (John&Rita) to the west (a lovely couple, they know everybody, they've lived here for 50 years!, and they're also our neighbors directly south, across the alley) were the first people to say yes to our chicken project.

So, just to clear everything up, to our direct west we have Zoological Student, whose family said yes right away. We share a fence with them. Directly to our east we share a fence with Eastern neighbors, who are still hemming and hawing. To the south is the alley, and directly south across the alley are John&Rita, who said yes right away as well. Directly W of John&Rita are the MinPin Guys (who have said yes, verbally, but who won't sign anything until Eastern folks get on board), and east of John&Rita are the Jerks, who will have vacated in a couple weeks. There's also a vacant house 2 houses down, which are assumed to have consent, because nobody's there to say no.

The people who bred our Australorps emailed me today and Hubby and I are going to go up there on May 1st to put down a deposit. Maybe by then we'll have had a chance to talk to the Eastern people (and hopefully by then they'll have chatted with the MinPin Guys also) and they will give their consent.

All of this is so exciting I've got hardly any fingernails left

Building of the coop proceeds apace. I am still praying and haven't given up hope at all!


Whitewater (working with the neighbors has so far been the worst part of the permit process!)

 

[Whitewater]

ACK!

Well, Animal Control has thrown a bit of a wrench into our plans. Turns out that you have to get your signatures within a 10 day time period and we have to get the signatures of 75% of a LOT MORE neighbors than I was previously told, almost double the #, in fact. Yikes! Thankfully this AC officer that I talked to knew his stuff, unlike the first one, lo, these many months ago.

So I have a lot of work to do right now . . . I need to edit the letter I'm sending out, print up more copies, and try to get a LOT more signatures.

Luckily Animal Control is going to give me a map with the new addresses on it, and right now they're considering vacant properties as conditionally ok, so we're good. He also accidentally-on-purpose let it slip that because they're accepting vacant properties right now and that they have no way of knowing for real which is vacant and which isn't, that saying a property is vacant is a perfectly acceptable tactic if there's no other way to get your signatures, although obviously he couldn't condone the practice and told me also 'I can't tell you to do this'. Realistically there are a few vacant properties within the 150 feet, at least two that I know of, so there is that.

The officer also saw that one of the properties at the very edge of the 150 foot boundary is only within the boundary by a couple feet, so he said they might be able to fudge on that one.

Now I need 10/13 signatures (given the vacant property already) instead of 5/7!!! *sigh*

He was very sympathetic, though, and supportive. I'm supposed to go this afternoon and pick up some sort of AC 'packet' that gives all the details, including a map of all the necessary addresses. And he said that because I was given very wrong information the first time I called, and because I didn't officially pick anything up, that our 10 days will start tomorrow, whew!

Tonight, I guess I get to go put letters in people's mailboxes! And I think it's lucky that we're already halfway home, because we already have about a third of the signatures we need, so we can focus on getting those other 7 people, whoever they are.

But I really am very tempted to just fill in 'vacant' in order to get our quota . . . I don't agree with this 'permission slip' law and I typically don't agree with laws that try to regulate what you can and can't do in your own back yard (I think that's a common sense sort of thing and shouldn't be necessary!) -- I will never live in a community that has a covenant or housing association --, I would have greatly preferred just getting the chickens and then dealing with it if and when a complaint came up.

Oh well.

But because I respect the law, even if I don't agree with it, tonight instead of working on the coop, I get to knock on doors and deliver letters. Yay.


Whitewater

PS -- The MinPin Guy is very supportive still, but he doesn't want to commit to signing anything or going on record until Eastern Neighbor does . . . and Eastern Neighbor is more or less supportive but doesn't want "to be the catalyst of change for the neighborhood", and also won't sign until MinPin guy does. *siiiiigh* People!

 

[Prospector]

I would suggest you keep notes of all your dealings with city hall. Reversals like this latest one are very helpful if you have to stand up for yourself. Be sure to get a record of who gave you the information and what they requested. Bylaw may not know what AC is telling people and viceversa.

Your record here is a good start, but in your personal files you should really have the names of everyone you deal with, copies of all teh neighbours' signature sheets, and all other details.

 

[Whitewater]

Well, we got another reply tonight! Hubby and I were out there putting siding on the coop and one of our neighbors walks up to us, with a filled out form. Yee-hah!

4 down, 6 to go.



Whitewater

 

[Whitewater]

We got two more forms in the mail today!

We need 10 out of 14 homes to sign our forms, per the new info by Animal Control. (Thankfully, they rounded down instead of up!) So far, we have 6 signatures, 1 automatic yes because the house is vacant and 1 home that's literally only a few feet inside the 150 ft radius (and the AC officer said that they'd probably give us that one, if we needed it, because it just barely 'counts' in the zone).

We have 5 as yet un-committed households (2 of which are MinPinGuy and Eastern Neighbor) and 1 firm no.

We just need two more forms to come in, and then we're good to go! I personally hope they come in sooner rather than later, our time margins are slim, see below.

I am really starting to feel better about this whole project.

The word on the coop inspection is that you give them your completed application + fee + signature forms, it's typically a 7-10 day turnaround for them to approve the permit conditionally, then another 5-10 days for them to go and inspect your coop. After that, if there's no huge issues with your coop, you're all legal. So . . . 20 days max from when you turn in your form . . . and at worst, our coop will get inspected by June 24th, which is nice, because we're supposed to pick up the birds on June 26th!!! Hopefully it will happen sooner than that!

(Of course, if we want to add another hen or change the species of hen we get after these original ones, say, in a year or two, then we have to go through this WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it!)


Whitewater