US Crele and White Sport Legbar Breeders - Alternative Legbar Group, for those not breeding to the P

[sol2go]

Since the autosexing of cream legbars is dependent on the combination of the wild type (dorsal chipmunk stripes) and the barring gene in dual factor in the males (white head spot), some autosexing has been accomplished on the F1 recessive whites. I have yet to see anyone who has demonstrated clear auotsexing in later generations - and some of the F1 recessive white CLs are difficult to autosex according to what I have heard and seen on forum.

Subsequent generations will show neither the wildtype (should be based on gold duckwing) nor the barring, will they, since their parents will have neither. I am VERY curious how people would see autosexing in subsequent generations of white CL.

Two white parents would give neither gold duckwing nor barring plumage markings to their offspring would they?

It would give one pause to call the recessive whites legbars if autosexing is one of the legbar traits.

Hi ChicKat, Happy New Year to All!

The recessive white offspring simply mask the gold duckwing and barred plumage; they don't replace it.
If bred with a conventional CL that is not split for white, all of the offspring would revert back to the standard CL - as long as the white sport came from standard CL stock in the first place.

While I haven't gotten to that place yet...two white sport parents should produce the same down pattern as two standard CL parents that are split for white and produce a white sport offspring.

Other thoughts?

 

[enola]

Very interesting!

 

[MeepBeep]

 


Since the autosexing of cream legbars is dependent on the combination of the wild type (dorsal chipmunk stripes) and the barring gene in dual factor in the males (white head spot), some autosexing has been accomplished on the F1 recessive whites.  I have yet to see anyone who has demonstrated clear auotsexing in later generations - and some of the F1 recessive white CLs are difficult to autosex according to what I have heard and seen on forum. 

Subsequent generations will show neither the wildtype (should be based on gold duckwing) nor the barring, will they, since their parents will have neither.   I am VERY curious how people would see autosexing in subsequent generations of white CL.  

Two white parents would give neither gold duckwing nor barring plumage markings to their offspring would they? 


It would give one pause to call the recessive whites legbars if autosexing is one of the legbar traits.  

Hi ChicKat, Happy New Year to All!

The recessive white offspring simply mask the gold duckwing and barred plumage; they don't replace it.  
If bred with a conventional CL that is not split for white, all of the offspring would revert back to the standard CL - as long as the white sport came from standard CL stock in the first place.

While I haven't gotten to that place yet...two white sport parents should produce the same down pattern as two standard CL parents that are split for white and produce a white sport offspring.

Other thoughts?

This is my understanding as well, the white gene is a suppressor of color not a replacement, the barring gene and other color genes still exist in the bird they are just suppressed... Thus in theory if you take two F1's that were autosexable you should be able to produce F2 that are sexable, although mileage is sure to vary and it's never going to be as obvious as full color birds... Of course that is theory based, I won't be there until later this summer at the earliest...

 

[enola]

I thought recessive white didn't cover up colors and patterns, I thought dominant white did that. Some body please educate me on this.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi ChicKat, Happy New Year to All!

The recessive white offspring simply mask the gold duckwing and barred plumage; they don't replace it.
If bred with a conventional CL that is not split for white, all of the offspring would revert back to the standard CL - as long as the white sport came from standard CL stock in the first place.

While I haven't gotten to that place yet...two white sport parents should produce the same down pattern as two standard CL parents that are split for white and produce a white sport offspring.

Other thoughts?

This is my understanding as well, the white gene is a suppressor of color not a replacement, the barring gene and other color genes still exist in the bird they are just suppressed... Thus in theory if you take two F1's that were autosexable you should be able to produce F2 that are sexable, although mileage is sure to vary and it's never going to be as obvious as full color birds... Of course that is theory based, I won't be there until later this summer at the earliest...

As the white is recessive, breeding back to normal CL will produce autosexing chicks that look like regular Cream Legbars, of course since recessives don't show up unless homozygous.

My understanding of a 'new variety' is that it would breed true for 5-years....and that would mean parents and offspring looking alike and not alternating normal and white- as I understand it. As yet, I have only heard of one person getting white to the F2 (two white parents) - and the autosexing was a bit unknown as I recall from a photo of the chick and discussion -- and no adult follow up was posted that I know about. Perhaps this is some of the source of confusion where people say that they will be 'breeding true' for multiple generations if in their eyes that incorporates normal CLs to put autosexing in every-other-generation.
:O)

Interesting topic, as enola says and food for thought. To me it would have to be 5-years of breeding white-to-white producing autosexing chicks and not breeding back to normal to be considered breeding true as I understand the APA requirements.

 

[ChicKat]

Updated picture of my crele cockerel

Very flashy guy! -- that is a nice pop of white on the earlobes. Looks like he is doing the goose step -- I have a guy who does that around his pen a lot. thanks for the posting the update photo.

 

[jerryse]

Very flashy guy! -- that is a nice pop of white on the earlobes. Looks like he is doing the goose step -- I have a guy who does that around his pen a lot. thanks for the posting the update photo.

Tanks . With careful breeding this could help ear lobe color , egg size , egg production and remove green tint in eggs . I wish I had rose comb in there . I picked the hens up at the sale barn . Layers past their prime . I saw a opportunity and bought them .

 

[MeepBeep]

As yet, I have only heard of one person getting white to the F2 (two white parents) - and the autosexing was a bit unknown as I recall from a photo of the chick and discussion -- and no adult follow up was posted that I know about.    Perhaps this is some of the source of confusion where people say that they will be 'breeding true' for multiple generations if in their eyes that incorporates normal CLs to put autosexing in every-other-generation.  

I don't believe enough people have documented and purposely attempted to bread a white line for use get any definitive answers either way on if the whites will breed true or not over any extended period while maintaining auto sexing, one poorly documented attempt is far short of conclusive in any regard...

IMO unless the homozygous white gene produces sterility or lethality I believe it should be able to be bred true...

** Edit due to a lost train of thought when replying...

I also believe that since it's a color suppression gene that auto sexing should be able to be preserved as the chicks still express a visible pattern at hatch, so it's not a full suppression at least not in heterozygous birds...

What I don't believe we know for certain (due to lack of easily found documented accounts) is if a homozygous white gene bird will still express the visible pattern at hatch like the heterozygous birds do...

If the homozygous birds do express a pattern at hatch (even if diminished) one can breed to better that expression and preserve auto sexing...

 

[jerryse]

I don't believe enough people have documented and purposely attempted to bread a white line for use get any definitive answers either way on if the whites will breed true or not over any extended period while maintaining auto sexing, one poorly documented attempt is far short of conclusive in any regard...

IMO unless the homozygous white gene produces sterility or lethality I believe it should be able to be bred true... I also believe that since it's a color suppression gene that auto sexing should be able to be preserved as the chicks still express a visible pattern at hatch, so it's not a full suppression at least not in heterozygous birds...

What I don't believe we know for certain (due to lack of easily found documented accounts) is if a homozygous white gene bird will still express the visible pattern at hatch like the heterozygous birds do...

If the homozygous birds do express a pattern at hatch (even if diminished) one can breed to better that expression and preserve auto sexing...

I believe the whites are recessive . Therefore there are no white birds that are hetrozygous . I would like to work with some to see if the auto sexing will hold . It should . Recessive whites in other breeds can have different color chick down depending on what color is hidden .So apparently this striped yellow is what down color you get from cream Legbar .

 

[MeepBeep]

I believe the whites are recessive . Therefore there are no white birds that are hetrozygous . I would like to work with some to see if the auto sexing will hold . It should . Recessive whites in other breeds can have different color chick down depending on what color is hidden .So apparently this striped yellow is what down color you get from cream Legbar .

Yeah, I lost my train of thought that it was a recessive gene with that reply because of three kids screaming and carrying on in the background and interrupting me every two seconds or having a major meltdown every 5 seconds... So disregard that reply...

With that said I don't see why a white bred to a white would further dilute the expression of pattern seen at birth in the F1, because as you said the any white bird is already homozygous, that won't change... My thought was there could be another complimentary undocumented gene at play that might further dilute the sexing pattern at birth in white birds or even in regular birds... That is where I was trying to head with my last post and suspicion of another complimentary color/pattern suppression gene that might be hetrozygous in F1 white birds allowing the pattern to be clear but could become homozygous in F2 (or even some F1) in some cases that could explain the claims that the auto sexing pattern diminishes on F2 and further, but obviously my previous post totally missed hitting the mark...