Vaccinate or Not

[ChocolateMouse]

This is how the human vaccines work too. That's why we will never eliminate the viruses we vaccinate for. Pertussis, whooping cough, is spread this way.

This is patently false and human beings are not chickens. Most human vaccines such as polio or measles produce a sterile immune response. This replicates natural immunity and produces a natural eradication of diseases. In many cases whole diseases have gone extinct from it.
Additionally, people are not chickens. If a vaccine has a chance of keeping large swaths of human populations alive then it should be used until a better option is available. Chicken genocide happens daily and I'm willing to accept the sacrifices of millions or billions of chickens dying for the sake of a healthier food systems in the future. I refuse to advocate for genocide of humans for a number of reasons and that includes the mass genocide of humans who are not naturally immune to diseases; which the alternative option to trying to keep them alive is to let them die.

Please don't mistake my concern for Mareks leaky vaccine as foolish anti-vaxx rhetoric. Anti-vaxxing for humans is by and large drivel and leads to some horrific conclusions about eugenics in humanity. I base my opinions off of peer reviewed research not feels about chemicals. Please do not use my posts to try to support anti-vaxx rhetoric for humans. I don't agree and think its awful.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

I have been watching this thread with interest. I am also unsure about mixing vaccinated and non vaccinated chicks.

There is a large breeder/small hatchery a few hours from me, she claims on her website that the vaccine they use for Mareks is non shedding. I tried looking it up to confirm that but I am not so good with the science talk so wasn’t able to figure out where the manufacturer states that it is non shedding. I hope for her sake that it is non shedding, and she isn’t just stating that it is..

From the website (it’s long, I’ll try to highlight the key parts):


Vaccinations
It was not very long ago when outdoor flocks in Western Canada could live long and never get sick beyond the occasional cough in the winter. But serious diseases have become a problem in the last 50 years. The number of birds being kept has grown hugely, and flocks are closer together. Biosecurity is often poor, with people buying and selling birds that may be carrying a disease. And perhaps the worst culprit: people who are reluctant to cull or even quarantine sick birds. This situation is a bonanza for germs. Once a disease gets introduced it’s here to stay, and we will likely see more and more of it.

In our opinion, the best way to protect our birds from disease is to vaccinate them. There are excellent, non-shedding vaccines now that can be administered to day old chicks. We can’t protect them from everything, but the vaccine we have chosen for the hatchery for 2017 gives them protection from the 2 worst and most common diseases in this area: Marek’s Disease and Infectious Laryngotracheitis, ILT.

Let’s talk about Marek’s Disease. It is a highly contagious neoplastic disease caused by a herpes virus. The virus is spread in dander from feather follicles which can stay suspended in the air for days and travel many miles. After inhaling the dust, microscopic lesions are present after one to two weeks, and gross lesions are present after three to four weeks. Chicks may go lame or get hugely enlarged livers before maturity, although some birds live a few years with the infection. Infected birds can be carriers and shedders for life. Marek’s disease is the most common chicken disease in this area.

And ILT. It is an acute, highly contagious, herpes virus infection characterized by severe trouble breathing, coughing, a swollen head, weepy eyes and a drop in egg laying. After recovery, birds remain carriers for life and become a source of infection for susceptible birds. The latent virus can be reactivated every time the bird is stressed. ILT is a reportable disease in Canada and you may be required to cull all your poultry if your flock gets it.

The vaccine we use at TNHH is Vectormune LT. It is stored in liquid nitrogen, so there is no mercury in it. A single 0.2ml shot at the hatchery confers lifetime immunity to both Marek’s and ILT. The vaccinated birds cannot spread either disease to other birds.

Here are some reasons people give for not vaccinating, and our comments:

* We’re organic. - No problem, vaccines are approved by all the organic certifiers.

* Vaccination is stressful - Not as stressful as suffering with Marek’s or ILT

* We’re breeding for natural resistance - That would be a very advanced genetics project, which requires far bigger flocks than you could possibly have.

* We can’t because we’re going to use medicated feed - Medicated feed only affects the Cocci parasite, it has no effect on viruses.

* We don’t have those diseases here - You may not, but unless you have your flock perfectly isolated they will be exposed sooner or later.

* It’s not worth the cost - One healthy young hen is worth the cost of 100 vaccinations.

Like small pox, Marek’s and ILT could be wiped out if everyone vaccinated. I don’t expect that to happen in my lifetime, but I’m doing my part now!

Does anyone have thoughts to share on this?

I will also add that I am dealing with some illness in my flock for the second time since moving here, and will be taking some birds to the animal health lab tomorrow morning when they open (I will make a separate thread on that).

As far as biosecurity goes, I have been told by vets that in order to prevent disease you basically have to contain your birds indoors for their entire lives..

TBH this is the first I've heard of a non shedding non leaky vaccine. It's in Canada which doesn't automatically mean it's in America. I'd love to see the research on it and see if it comes to the USA.

If it does I'd be 100% on board but if it's real it's not well publicized in the US.

 

[Lou Anne McKeefery]

Science does not support your position, only the propaganda. And if you would like me to post the peer reviewed science I will be happy to do so. We can start with this one:
Abstract Title:
Detection of vaccine-derived rotavirus strains in nonimmunocompromised children up to 3-6 months after RotaTeq® vaccination.
Abstract Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25260041
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2015 Mar ;34(3):296-8. PMID: 25260041

Abstract Author(s):
Jukka Markkula, Maria Hemming, Timo Vesikari
Article Affiliation:
Jukka Markkula
Abstract:
We conducted a survey on the presence of RotaTeq vaccine viruses in infants hospitalized with respiratory infection, and detected shedding in 17% of children (<2 years of age) who had ever received the vaccine. The latest detection was at the age of 8 months. We conclude that asymptomatic long-time shedding of RotaTeq viruses is not uncommon, and is particularly associated with genotype G1.
Article Published Date : Feb 28, 2015
Study Type : Human Study

 

[keeper 1960]

well all very interesting. we should start with, do you believe vaccine work at all? in most states it is 71 shots for all kids. and more on the way. i had chicken pox,measles, mumps. fifths etc. same for my wife.if they do not work in humans, they will not work in chickens or any other living animal.something to think about?

 

[ChocolateMouse]

We conducted a survey on the presence of RotaTeq vaccine viruses in infants hospitalized with respiratory infection, and detected shedding in 17% of children (<2 years of age) who had ever received the vaccine. The latest detection was at the age of 8 months. We conclude that asymptomatic long-time shedding of RotaTeq viruses is not uncommon, and is particularly associated with genotype G1.
Article Published Date : Feb 28, 2015
Study Type : Human Study

Like I said; for leaky vaccines in people the options are; Vaccine or genocide. Now it sounds like I know which one you prefer? (To be clear, I am saying yes chicken genocide. No people genocide.)

Please keep your anti-vaxxing stuff away from my posts even if you think they support your cause. Do not quote me to try to support anti vaxxing. I do not support your position.

Dive down that rabbit hole with someone else, Karen. You try to drag me in I will correct you aggressively.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Also, gave a little glance at that study. It said 17% of children who were vaccinated AND showed symptoms were leaky. To be clear.... 100% of children infected and unvaccinated are leaky.

If there was an 83% sterile Mareks vaccine I'd be ALL over that. It would be such an improvement. I would probably still keep a mixed vacc/unvacc flock to KNOW if I had Mareks or not if it ever hit because of my scenario. But I would be MUCH more enthusiastic about that than the current entirely non sterile vaccine. Mareks would be MUCH less scary for everyone with a vaccine like that on the market.

For human people it strikes me as a no brainer.

 

[The Kooky Kiwi]

Several seasons ago I had two sebright cross roosters (brothers) that I strongly suspect contracted Mareks. One survived his symptoms but was lost to a hawk the following season and the other died of other complications later. I can only assume that if this was Mareks then it came in with a wild bird, and that it has been selective in it's virility. My other sebrights (already adults prior to this event) had never shown any hint of illness prior and never any hint of illness since.

I have to now assume that my flock has "in all likelihood" become Mareks positive as I cannot say with absolute certainty that A) I had it or B) that my other hens aren't now carriers. (Note - my local vet wasn't interested in autopsying my birds.. even as a training excercise with their grads.. so I had no way to know for sure).

Vaccination decision aside - It would be nice to be able to test your flock prior to them all dying. I would very much like to know now what the status of my flock is.

 

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

Several seasons ago I had two sebright cross roosters (brothers) that I strongly suspect contracted Mareks. One survived his symptoms but was lost to a hawk the following season and the other died of other complications later. I can only assume that if this was Mareks then it came in with a wild bird, and that it has been selective in it's virility. My other sebrights (already adults prior to this event) had never shown any hint of illness prior and never any hint of illness since.

I have to now assume that my flock has "in all likelihood" become Mareks positive as I cannot say with absolute certainty that A) I had it or B) that my other hens aren't now carriers. (Note - my local vet wasn't interested in autopsying my birds.. even as a training excercise with their grads.. so I had no way to know for sure).

Vaccination decision aside - It would be nice to be able to test your flock prior to them all dying. I would very much like to know now what the status of my flock is.

I’m sorry that you lost your Sebrights! Your state veterinary diagnostic lab will be you best bet of determining why any future birds die. Veterinary pathologists are specially trained to look for more subtle signs under a microscope, which most vets cannot do. Most state diagnostic labs have programs where most of the testing is free or subsidized because they are tasked with screening for avian influenza and Newcastle’s disease. Here is a list by state:
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahln/downloads/all_nahln_lab_list.pdf

 

[The Kooky Kiwi]

I’m sorry that you lost your Sebrights! ...

Hi Mixed Flock.. thanks for the reply. I should probably clarify that I'm in New Zealand so unfortunately we do not have the resources available to us that you guys have. I'm certain that commercial keepers with many $$ tied up in their avian stock could access laboratory testing and some effective medicines but for the average flock owner these are either straight up unavailable or simply too costly to be worth considering.

The interesting aspect with my two sebrights .. was that they both appeared to survive their initial symptoms (though both died via other causes so hard to know if they would have developed other Mareks symptoms later).. but also that they were alive and mixing with my flock for long enough that I would have expected to see more cases (one year on and no other issues at all).

Either we just don't have the nasty strains that you guys have there, or what they contracted wasn't Mareks, or I have bulletproof chickens

 

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

Hi Mixed Flock.. thanks for the reply. I should probably clarify that I'm in New Zealand so unfortunately we do not have the resources available to us that you guys have. I'm certain that commercial keepers with many $$ tied up in their avian stock could access laboratory testing and some effective medicines but for the average flock owner these are either straight up unavailable or simply too costly to be worth considering.

The interesting aspect with my two sebrights .. was that they both appeared to survive their initial symptoms (though both died via other causes so hard to know if they would have developed other Mareks symptoms later).. but also that they were alive and mixing with my flock for long enough that I would have expected to see more cases (one year on and no other issues at all).

Either we just don't have the nasty strains that you guys have there, or what they contracted wasn't Mareks, or I have bulletproof chickens

I guess that your screen name should have clued me in! Have you tried here? If they can’t help then they should know who can:
https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/laboratories/national-animal-health-laboratory/
As far as your sebrights, they could of course have had some problem other than Marek’s. However, MDV is much more likely to cause disease in young birds. Also, you older birds might have been vaccinated at the hatchery, or you may have a mild enough strain that you have little overt disease in most birds. Good luck with your flock!