Lets get back to the OP's topic here! This is not a discussion about herbs!
Mary
Mary
Vacinations and other meds forever?
- Thread starter Eric R
- Start date
Many of us aren't feeding ANY medicine, herbal or not, to our birds, and they do fine. If a problem appears, it needs to be identified and managed, but that's part of good husbandry. Mary
- Thread starter
- #23
What are your thoughts on be
Well hopefully this thread doesn't go off the rails but all opinions and views are welcome as I am just trying to warp my head around all options and deciding on the best option for me and my flock. And he who is busy speaking is not busy learning so I'll pose some questions if you would please help to respond in a practical and helpful way.
1. This is about breeding a healthier more resistant flock. I find it hard to believe that vaccinated, medicated flocks are healthier than a flock who has overtime build up resistance to diseases and that have learned how to deal with them. Take for instance the wild birds that carry diseases that our chickens can contract. Why aren't they falling off trees? I'm curious what your take is on "health" in a flock.
2. I'm glad you posted articles and studies about natural remedies and how they may not necessarily work. But I don't think you would say that all meds work 100% of the time either. I've seen plenty of videos of chickens walking around other dead chickens from farms who medicate so it goes both ways. That being said, which way do you think works better in the long run and why?
3. Do you believe it is possible to work up a resistance to some of these diseases and managing others with natural products creates a toxic bird from which we should not be eating their meat or eggs? Are medicated birds better for that?
4. A lot of these meds and vaccines have not been around for very long when compared to how long people have been raising chickens. Why is it better to medicate now when it wasn't the case before? What if any articles do you have showing how people dealt with disease and sicknesses back then?
5. What is a squatch watcher and is it politically correct to call someone that in public?
If Marek's disease arrives in your flock, it's ugly, but you have two choices; give up, or go on with the birds who manage to survive and do well. Nearly no disease kills everyone, so there will be survivors, and their offspring will tend to inherit that ability. Some of us have avoided that disease entirely, and that's even better! If it does strike, the vaccinated birds will tend to do better than the others, and saving lives is a good thing.
We all want healthy birds! My point is that there's no reason to medicate with anything all the time, and some things don't respond to meds anyway. Practicing good biosecurity will pay off, and then manage what does happen. Wild birds are unavoidable unless your birds are indoors all the time, and so staying ahead of problems is an ongoing story.
Mary
We all want healthy birds! My point is that there's no reason to medicate with anything all the time, and some things don't respond to meds anyway. Practicing good biosecurity will pay off, and then manage what does happen. Wild birds are unavoidable unless your birds are indoors all the time, and so staying ahead of problems is an ongoing story.
Mary
Turkeys carry a strain of Marek's dz. that is less lethal. By encouraging wild turkeys on your land, if that is an option, or even getting used bedding from a turkey flock, it's possible to afford this more natural protection.
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@Eric R
You've raised a number of different questions in your posts for which the answers will be different according to your goals, environment, and philosophies.
Folly's Place is very right in that 10 different chicken keepers will likely have 10 different ways of doing things. That's because each owner's purposes, environment, and flocks are different as well as philosophies.
If I understand you correctly, you want to run about 20 birds on an acre for personal use. You hope to keep this flock sustainable for long term with as little medical interference as possible using good husbandry. Those are good goals.
You don't state if you want eggs only, or meat and eggs, or meat only. That will change your care somewhat. I will assume, like most small holders, you wish mostly eggs but will process cockerels and old hens. In essence, you are recreating the average home from the pioneer days to 1920's, or even 1930's in America. (For the longer answer to your philosophical questions, if interested, see end of post).
I think you are at risk of overthinking your chicken keeping. The water is great. Jump in.
Build a sturdy predator proof coop for lock up at night. Buy 20 chicks (best) or 20 birds from an established flock nearby. Keep different breeds for diversity. Keep a closed flock (no adult birds coming in...or going out). Keep things clean and dry using natural biotics to compost for you. Provide good food and water. Use herbals for maintenance. Let hens brood for chicks. Watch over your flock. Adjust as necessary. Use meds when needed or cull.
That is it for most of us who have small flocks for personal use. How much we do and when we do it is largely dependent upon our differing climates, soils, and general environmental conditions (local pests and predators) as well as our breeds and goals (meat vs. eggs).
And definitely keep us posted on your progress. We love to hear how other chicken keepers are fairing...both successes and failures. (We will rejoice and weep with you.)
LofMc
The longer answer (more philosophical...my opinions and experiences... read only if interested)
Question #3 Do you believe it is possible to work up a resistance to some of these diseases and managing others with natural products creates a toxic bird from which we should not be eating their meat or eggs? Are medicated birds better for that?
Keeping a small flock for personal use is vastly different than keeping a large flock for commercial purpose. Dynamics change quickly with larger numbers.
ANY treatment will eventually fail as parasites and pathogens build resistance or simply those that survive outnumber those that are killed. That is why it is important to rotate what you use from time to time to avoid creating a population that is resistant.
Herbals have their place and can be effective, however (from studies and personal experience) herbals are known to require a larger quantity over a longer period of time to be effective. Also, the herbal market is poorly controlled. The average consumer is not certain exactly what they've gotten in those herbals. I've seen this with my own flock.
The key is to keep a keen eye on your birds to watch for disease. Cull or treat those appropriately. Do not assume any med or herbal is doing the job without further scrutiny. That means visual inspection and lab tests if necessary.
Most small flock owners using good husbandry, herbals for maintenance, meds when needed, culling when appropriate, do fine with very little need for intense care.
If you are using your birds for meat, and have suspicions of illness, I would not try to alleviate bacterial infections such as eColi or pasturella with just herbals unless you've done lab testing. I would not sell or even give away meat birds without some lab testing.
Most chicken pathogens won't affect humans, but eColi, Pasturella, Salmonella, and even the fungal histoplasmosis (grown in chicken poo) can pose risk to humans.
4. A lot of these meds and vaccines have not been around for very long when compared to how long people have been raising chickens. Why is it better to medicate now when it wasn't the case before? What if any articles do you have showing how people dealt with disease and sicknesses back then?
I can answer this both from Ag history I've studied and from personal family experience. (My grandparents were small farmers; I grew up in 4H and farm land, my daughter is a Vet Tech and a small commercial organic farmer).
People over the years kept small flocks for family use only. Most people provided their own food or sold in smaller quantities to the store or traded for what they needed. (City dwellers had to rely on near by farmers). A large percentage of the nation's land was in agriculture, generally small family holdings.
The birds either survived or didn't. Periodically, you did see whole flocks wiped out as disaster hit, but natural selection left birds that could survive in those conditions. Eggs were present, but not super abundant, meat was tougher as the birds were leaner and meaner. Good husbandry was essential for success, but some regular loss was simply a part of chicken keeping. Each season a hen went broody and provided a new generation. I've essentially described my grandmother's small homestead through the 1910's to about the end of WWII.
As the nation changed more and more with industrialization, more people went to work in the cities, and huge markets for food were created. You will see a lot of the poultry and ag research began in the early 1900's to 1920's as industry researched ways to keep up with the new market demand since fewer people were growing their own food. From that abundant research, often done at Ag colleges newly springing up and government programs, modern commercial chicken keeping was formed. With that came the use of drugs and vaccines for livestock because loss now meant thousands of birds rather than a few. These new practices allowed a whole nation to be abundantly fed by a small percentage of farmers. Farm land turned over to cities and industry.
(I've now described my grandmother's egg ranch in the 1950's to 1960's).
Over time, as is with most things, unexpected consequences begin to arise. Parasites, bacteria, and viruses began to grow resistant to the drugs and vaccines. New drugs and vaccines were created. Ag research remained ongoing. In time, the industry saw that natural biome loss created problems. A new surge for more natural surroundings for animals grew. (BTW, a vast majority of American farmers work very hard to provide food with the best, most humane means possible. Hats off to those farmers!)
More recently, there has been growing public concern regarding antibiotic over use in animals and general animal care. Over the last 10 years, Congress has responded to those concerns with laws that essentially ban many of the antibiotics, especially those that are also used in human care. Since January 2017, the FDA has removed most antibiotics and wormers from the poultry market. (Perdue's response to herbals is not out of the goodness of the heart, it is law).
With these changes, a whole new industry has grown up with herbal remedies for both animals and humans.
What works best? Well, that is a matter of debate now as the industry is scrambling to find ways to effectively manage their flocks for commercial purpose. It will be interesting to see better research with herbals, and better herbals, but keep in mind, the number one method of control in commercial industry is culling...that means turning over the flock of layers every 2 years, processing (usually dog food) those that are over 2.
Why the magic number of 2 or 3 years? As a bird grows older, generally after age 2 or 3, especially for the commercial lines (your production layers), most have an aging immune system. Pathogens begin to build up in the bird, and problems begin to arise. The answer is to cull...turn over the flock every 2 years. Industry also lets whole buildings and pen areas lay fallow to rotate birds through. They do heavy cleaning in those fallow buildings to help reduce pathogens and the need for culling or treatment (which is now limited).
Meat birds naturally have a short life, so their turn over is naturally faster.
Breeding for more "heritage" type birds will improve their immune systems. Expect loss the first few years until the flock is stabilized for better long term sustainability.
For the small holder, it now becomes a matter of personal preferences, philosophies, and flock requirements as influenced by your environment and goals.
Again, small personal flock care is vastly different than commercial flock care. Egg production is different than meat production. Providing for your family is different than providing for market.
As for my flock? My daughter always loved animals. Having grown up in farm country (grandparents farmers, daddy more of a hobby rancher), I wanted her to have animal experience on our small plot of land. We began my flock for her 4H and vet tech studies. We developed our care around her studies, and used my flock to increase her knowledge.
From that, we used herbals to test how well they work. We came to discover that while they hold down infestations, with small land holding, they simply cannot keep up with the eventual over load in OUR area...we live in a mild, wet climate, that is conducive to parasite build up.
She has discovered those effects also on her organic farm in Tennessee. Herbals keep things down, but do not for the long term, prevent flare ups. For that you either cull (if you are organic) or treat.
My thoughts. My experiences.
LofMc
You've raised a number of different questions in your posts for which the answers will be different according to your goals, environment, and philosophies.
Folly's Place is very right in that 10 different chicken keepers will likely have 10 different ways of doing things. That's because each owner's purposes, environment, and flocks are different as well as philosophies.
If I understand you correctly, you want to run about 20 birds on an acre for personal use. You hope to keep this flock sustainable for long term with as little medical interference as possible using good husbandry. Those are good goals.
You don't state if you want eggs only, or meat and eggs, or meat only. That will change your care somewhat. I will assume, like most small holders, you wish mostly eggs but will process cockerels and old hens. In essence, you are recreating the average home from the pioneer days to 1920's, or even 1930's in America. (For the longer answer to your philosophical questions, if interested, see end of post).
I think you are at risk of overthinking your chicken keeping. The water is great. Jump in.
Build a sturdy predator proof coop for lock up at night. Buy 20 chicks (best) or 20 birds from an established flock nearby. Keep different breeds for diversity. Keep a closed flock (no adult birds coming in...or going out). Keep things clean and dry using natural biotics to compost for you. Provide good food and water. Use herbals for maintenance. Let hens brood for chicks. Watch over your flock. Adjust as necessary. Use meds when needed or cull.
That is it for most of us who have small flocks for personal use. How much we do and when we do it is largely dependent upon our differing climates, soils, and general environmental conditions (local pests and predators) as well as our breeds and goals (meat vs. eggs).
And definitely keep us posted on your progress. We love to hear how other chicken keepers are fairing...both successes and failures. (We will rejoice and weep with you.)
LofMc
The longer answer (more philosophical...my opinions and experiences... read only if interested)
Question #3 Do you believe it is possible to work up a resistance to some of these diseases and managing others with natural products creates a toxic bird from which we should not be eating their meat or eggs? Are medicated birds better for that?
Keeping a small flock for personal use is vastly different than keeping a large flock for commercial purpose. Dynamics change quickly with larger numbers.
ANY treatment will eventually fail as parasites and pathogens build resistance or simply those that survive outnumber those that are killed. That is why it is important to rotate what you use from time to time to avoid creating a population that is resistant.
Herbals have their place and can be effective, however (from studies and personal experience) herbals are known to require a larger quantity over a longer period of time to be effective. Also, the herbal market is poorly controlled. The average consumer is not certain exactly what they've gotten in those herbals. I've seen this with my own flock.
The key is to keep a keen eye on your birds to watch for disease. Cull or treat those appropriately. Do not assume any med or herbal is doing the job without further scrutiny. That means visual inspection and lab tests if necessary.
Most small flock owners using good husbandry, herbals for maintenance, meds when needed, culling when appropriate, do fine with very little need for intense care.
If you are using your birds for meat, and have suspicions of illness, I would not try to alleviate bacterial infections such as eColi or pasturella with just herbals unless you've done lab testing. I would not sell or even give away meat birds without some lab testing.
Most chicken pathogens won't affect humans, but eColi, Pasturella, Salmonella, and even the fungal histoplasmosis (grown in chicken poo) can pose risk to humans.
4. A lot of these meds and vaccines have not been around for very long when compared to how long people have been raising chickens. Why is it better to medicate now when it wasn't the case before? What if any articles do you have showing how people dealt with disease and sicknesses back then?
I can answer this both from Ag history I've studied and from personal family experience. (My grandparents were small farmers; I grew up in 4H and farm land, my daughter is a Vet Tech and a small commercial organic farmer).
People over the years kept small flocks for family use only. Most people provided their own food or sold in smaller quantities to the store or traded for what they needed. (City dwellers had to rely on near by farmers). A large percentage of the nation's land was in agriculture, generally small family holdings.
The birds either survived or didn't. Periodically, you did see whole flocks wiped out as disaster hit, but natural selection left birds that could survive in those conditions. Eggs were present, but not super abundant, meat was tougher as the birds were leaner and meaner. Good husbandry was essential for success, but some regular loss was simply a part of chicken keeping. Each season a hen went broody and provided a new generation. I've essentially described my grandmother's small homestead through the 1910's to about the end of WWII.
As the nation changed more and more with industrialization, more people went to work in the cities, and huge markets for food were created. You will see a lot of the poultry and ag research began in the early 1900's to 1920's as industry researched ways to keep up with the new market demand since fewer people were growing their own food. From that abundant research, often done at Ag colleges newly springing up and government programs, modern commercial chicken keeping was formed. With that came the use of drugs and vaccines for livestock because loss now meant thousands of birds rather than a few. These new practices allowed a whole nation to be abundantly fed by a small percentage of farmers. Farm land turned over to cities and industry.
(I've now described my grandmother's egg ranch in the 1950's to 1960's).
Over time, as is with most things, unexpected consequences begin to arise. Parasites, bacteria, and viruses began to grow resistant to the drugs and vaccines. New drugs and vaccines were created. Ag research remained ongoing. In time, the industry saw that natural biome loss created problems. A new surge for more natural surroundings for animals grew. (BTW, a vast majority of American farmers work very hard to provide food with the best, most humane means possible. Hats off to those farmers!)
More recently, there has been growing public concern regarding antibiotic over use in animals and general animal care. Over the last 10 years, Congress has responded to those concerns with laws that essentially ban many of the antibiotics, especially those that are also used in human care. Since January 2017, the FDA has removed most antibiotics and wormers from the poultry market. (Perdue's response to herbals is not out of the goodness of the heart, it is law).
With these changes, a whole new industry has grown up with herbal remedies for both animals and humans.
What works best? Well, that is a matter of debate now as the industry is scrambling to find ways to effectively manage their flocks for commercial purpose. It will be interesting to see better research with herbals, and better herbals, but keep in mind, the number one method of control in commercial industry is culling...that means turning over the flock of layers every 2 years, processing (usually dog food) those that are over 2.
Why the magic number of 2 or 3 years? As a bird grows older, generally after age 2 or 3, especially for the commercial lines (your production layers), most have an aging immune system. Pathogens begin to build up in the bird, and problems begin to arise. The answer is to cull...turn over the flock every 2 years. Industry also lets whole buildings and pen areas lay fallow to rotate birds through. They do heavy cleaning in those fallow buildings to help reduce pathogens and the need for culling or treatment (which is now limited).
Meat birds naturally have a short life, so their turn over is naturally faster.
Breeding for more "heritage" type birds will improve their immune systems. Expect loss the first few years until the flock is stabilized for better long term sustainability.
For the small holder, it now becomes a matter of personal preferences, philosophies, and flock requirements as influenced by your environment and goals.
Again, small personal flock care is vastly different than commercial flock care. Egg production is different than meat production. Providing for your family is different than providing for market.
As for my flock? My daughter always loved animals. Having grown up in farm country (grandparents farmers, daddy more of a hobby rancher), I wanted her to have animal experience on our small plot of land. We began my flock for her 4H and vet tech studies. We developed our care around her studies, and used my flock to increase her knowledge.
From that, we used herbals to test how well they work. We came to discover that while they hold down infestations, with small land holding, they simply cannot keep up with the eventual over load in OUR area...we live in a mild, wet climate, that is conducive to parasite build up.
She has discovered those effects also on her organic farm in Tennessee. Herbals keep things down, but do not for the long term, prevent flare ups. For that you either cull (if you are organic) or treat.
My thoughts. My experiences.
LofMc
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1. There are at least 2 people on here that have flocks with Mareks, that have continued on. They have my admiration. It's still very sad when they lose one. I personally have never vaccinated any of my chickens for anything. The term vaccine, being applied to the Mareks vaccine, is very misleading. Yes, even big pharma needs to be debunked when it comes to our health, or the health of our animals. I'm an equal opportunity debunker. How dare they try to pass off a leaky vaccine as beneficial. It has done far more harm than good. Building resistance means the chickens have to be exposed to the disease, and overcome it. That takes time, and it takes it's toll in lives, until resistance is achieved. Too, there are some diseases that, due to the nature of the disease, that the birds die so fast, resistance can't be achieved.
There are plenty of examples in nature, where a particular disease can affect one, or more types of birds, but not all types of birds. There are example where a disease may affect one type of bird one way, and the same disease affects a different type of bird in a different way. This is how wild birds can sometimes be carriers of a certain disease, while being totally unaffected. I didn't say immune. They didn't have to build an immunity, since they could not be affected to begin with. When they're exposed, they can carry the germs, and expose your flock. The good thing is, the majority of wild birds don't live very long when they're exposed to a disease that will kill them. That helps wipe out the disease. There are example of region specific, or climate specific diseases. I've never been worried about most strains of AI. It can't survive in temperatures over 80 degrees. I live in Florida, and while we do get cold snaps that are lower than 80 degrees, they are short lived, so it would be much harder for AI to do the damage here that it's done up north. Birds fly south for the winter, so they then get a chance to decontaminate.
2. Keeping your flock healthy is the first line of defense, always. Use soap, and water to wash waterers, feeders, roosts, and poop board clean, often. Don't be afraid to rake out the feathers, and muck. I've always maintained that the larger the variety in an overall species specific diet, the more beneficial it is. Toss some of the herbs from your garden in for the chickens to eat sometimes. Sprout a good mix of bird seed, and give it to them sometimes. Let them have some fruits, and vegetables, and seeds. Just don't overdo it, so they are eating more treats instead of the solid nutrition required to maintain them. My chickens eat pumpkin, and pumpkin seeds, but not on a constant basis. I toss basil, oregano, and parsley in my coop, but not all the time. Does it help? Absolutely. When I did bumblefoot surgery, of course I gave my boy some bromelain, and papain. Yes, it has been proven very effective to lessen inflamation, reduce swelling, reduce fluid build up, and promote healing. I also put neosporin (WITHOUT pain relief) on the surgical site too, to prevent infection. Animals live in a dirtier environment than people, so I'd hate for the surgery to be a success, and lose my guy to infection. Yes, honey would work, but remember I'm in Florida. We don't have cold enough winters to reduce the bug population. There is no shortage of ants here, and the honey would attract them by the droves, both into the home, and the coop. He's already suffered surgery, why make him suffer ant bites too? Circumstances, and situations play a role in our decisions too.
The articles I posted don't all say that these things don't work. What they say is that they do work, how, how much, and on what. The studies on pumpkin seeds clearly show they are beneficial. They also show what they are effective against, and what they are not effective against, and the limits of their effectiveness. I agree that nothing is 100%, whether natural, or pharmaceutical. Again, I mention variety in diet. Ok, lets take the example of Perdue. At one time, many large chicken farms added small doses of antibiotics on a steady basis, as a preventative. Here's the problem. The germs they were trying to protect against, adapted. They became resistant. The antibiotics were no longer protecting the chickens, and became useless as a treatment when any chickens got something that could have been treated with that antibiotic. Oregano, and parsley do have antibiotic properties, and are very effective against some things. Let's say my chickens look to be panting more than usual. I don't want a respiratory illness taking hold, so in the early stages, I add oregano to their diet for a week as an antibiotic medicine to help them fight it. This could stand a good chance of helping my chickens overcome the illness. Along comes Perdue, that constantly gives this to their chickens, simply trading one antibiotic for another. They've already proven that this practice, over time, will cause the germs to adapt, rendering it useless. I do not suggest running to the medicine cabinet, whether it be for commercial, or natural medicines as a constant preventative, but only when needed. It works the same for parasites, both internal, and external. While DE may work in your situation, and circumstances to eradicate lice/mites, there is too much of a chance of them adapting when it's used constantly as a preventative. More, and more people report that it's ineffective. The same thing with Sevin Dust. More, and more people are reporting that certain types of mites have become resistant to it. When things like this are used to treat an actual infestation, instead of a preventative, they stand a greater chance of working. Sorry, but the practices of others can, and do have an impact on you too. It's not always an either, or situation. Take the best of both worlds.
3. I addressed a lot of this in 1. Can we create toxic birds using natural remedies? Arsenic is natural. Years ago it was used in cosmetics, and women took a small amount of it daily as a beauty enhancer. The negative side of it was not revealed at first. Years later, they discovered it had a very bad downside. Sticking to a solid, species specific diet, keeping their environment clean, and healthy, and using medications, whether natural, or not, only when needed, helps ensure that we don't develop a toxic flock, especially over time.
4. Mareks started as 1 strain. Without the vaccine, it would have eventually died out, or over time, chickens would have become resistant. The leaky vaccine, had resulted in there now being 6 strains instead of 1. Many germs have adapted. Back when our great grandparents were raising chickens, there were not as many diseases, and/or strains of those diseases. There were other differences too. The majority of people raised their own food. They were not nearly as dependent on the grocery stores for all their food. This meant that they tended to have more livestock, not just a couple chickens. Livestock was for food, and most of it was raised to be butchered. Most weren't as willing to take a chance on allowing a sickness to spread through their flocks. They weren't willing to eat, or feed sick animals to their families either. Most were more willing to cull, when needed. Livestock cost them good money, even back then, so they didn't just cull for the heck of it. While it may sound unthinkable now, since people are more, and more removed from their food sources, back then butchering their own animals, keeping only the best for breeding, and culling when needed, was part of their normal life, which resulted in better stock, and overall healthier stock.
5. There is a thread called: Anyone have luck catching a feral chicken?? The lady would occasionally catch a glimpse of a hen, but it was not hers. She checked with the neighbors, and it wasn't theirs. When she asked family, and neighbors if they had seen the chicken, no one had. She was the only one that saw it. She described it as being like the elusive Sasquatch. The elusive hen has been dubbed Mrs. Squatch. People being chiming in, and in several days, she did catch a bantam rooster, but not the hen she had seen. He's been named Mr. Squatch. The thread has continued growing, and some of us are waiting to see if Mrs. Squatch succumbed to predators, or whether she's sitting on a nest, and will emerge in a few weeks, possibly with chicks. Those that have been watching the thread have been dubbed Squatch Watchers.
There are plenty of examples in nature, where a particular disease can affect one, or more types of birds, but not all types of birds. There are example where a disease may affect one type of bird one way, and the same disease affects a different type of bird in a different way. This is how wild birds can sometimes be carriers of a certain disease, while being totally unaffected. I didn't say immune. They didn't have to build an immunity, since they could not be affected to begin with. When they're exposed, they can carry the germs, and expose your flock. The good thing is, the majority of wild birds don't live very long when they're exposed to a disease that will kill them. That helps wipe out the disease. There are example of region specific, or climate specific diseases. I've never been worried about most strains of AI. It can't survive in temperatures over 80 degrees. I live in Florida, and while we do get cold snaps that are lower than 80 degrees, they are short lived, so it would be much harder for AI to do the damage here that it's done up north. Birds fly south for the winter, so they then get a chance to decontaminate.
2. Keeping your flock healthy is the first line of defense, always. Use soap, and water to wash waterers, feeders, roosts, and poop board clean, often. Don't be afraid to rake out the feathers, and muck. I've always maintained that the larger the variety in an overall species specific diet, the more beneficial it is. Toss some of the herbs from your garden in for the chickens to eat sometimes. Sprout a good mix of bird seed, and give it to them sometimes. Let them have some fruits, and vegetables, and seeds. Just don't overdo it, so they are eating more treats instead of the solid nutrition required to maintain them. My chickens eat pumpkin, and pumpkin seeds, but not on a constant basis. I toss basil, oregano, and parsley in my coop, but not all the time. Does it help? Absolutely. When I did bumblefoot surgery, of course I gave my boy some bromelain, and papain. Yes, it has been proven very effective to lessen inflamation, reduce swelling, reduce fluid build up, and promote healing. I also put neosporin (WITHOUT pain relief) on the surgical site too, to prevent infection. Animals live in a dirtier environment than people, so I'd hate for the surgery to be a success, and lose my guy to infection. Yes, honey would work, but remember I'm in Florida. We don't have cold enough winters to reduce the bug population. There is no shortage of ants here, and the honey would attract them by the droves, both into the home, and the coop. He's already suffered surgery, why make him suffer ant bites too? Circumstances, and situations play a role in our decisions too.
The articles I posted don't all say that these things don't work. What they say is that they do work, how, how much, and on what. The studies on pumpkin seeds clearly show they are beneficial. They also show what they are effective against, and what they are not effective against, and the limits of their effectiveness. I agree that nothing is 100%, whether natural, or pharmaceutical. Again, I mention variety in diet. Ok, lets take the example of Perdue. At one time, many large chicken farms added small doses of antibiotics on a steady basis, as a preventative. Here's the problem. The germs they were trying to protect against, adapted. They became resistant. The antibiotics were no longer protecting the chickens, and became useless as a treatment when any chickens got something that could have been treated with that antibiotic. Oregano, and parsley do have antibiotic properties, and are very effective against some things. Let's say my chickens look to be panting more than usual. I don't want a respiratory illness taking hold, so in the early stages, I add oregano to their diet for a week as an antibiotic medicine to help them fight it. This could stand a good chance of helping my chickens overcome the illness. Along comes Perdue, that constantly gives this to their chickens, simply trading one antibiotic for another. They've already proven that this practice, over time, will cause the germs to adapt, rendering it useless. I do not suggest running to the medicine cabinet, whether it be for commercial, or natural medicines as a constant preventative, but only when needed. It works the same for parasites, both internal, and external. While DE may work in your situation, and circumstances to eradicate lice/mites, there is too much of a chance of them adapting when it's used constantly as a preventative. More, and more people report that it's ineffective. The same thing with Sevin Dust. More, and more people are reporting that certain types of mites have become resistant to it. When things like this are used to treat an actual infestation, instead of a preventative, they stand a greater chance of working. Sorry, but the practices of others can, and do have an impact on you too. It's not always an either, or situation. Take the best of both worlds.
3. I addressed a lot of this in 1. Can we create toxic birds using natural remedies? Arsenic is natural. Years ago it was used in cosmetics, and women took a small amount of it daily as a beauty enhancer. The negative side of it was not revealed at first. Years later, they discovered it had a very bad downside. Sticking to a solid, species specific diet, keeping their environment clean, and healthy, and using medications, whether natural, or not, only when needed, helps ensure that we don't develop a toxic flock, especially over time.
4. Mareks started as 1 strain. Without the vaccine, it would have eventually died out, or over time, chickens would have become resistant. The leaky vaccine, had resulted in there now being 6 strains instead of 1. Many germs have adapted. Back when our great grandparents were raising chickens, there were not as many diseases, and/or strains of those diseases. There were other differences too. The majority of people raised their own food. They were not nearly as dependent on the grocery stores for all their food. This meant that they tended to have more livestock, not just a couple chickens. Livestock was for food, and most of it was raised to be butchered. Most weren't as willing to take a chance on allowing a sickness to spread through their flocks. They weren't willing to eat, or feed sick animals to their families either. Most were more willing to cull, when needed. Livestock cost them good money, even back then, so they didn't just cull for the heck of it. While it may sound unthinkable now, since people are more, and more removed from their food sources, back then butchering their own animals, keeping only the best for breeding, and culling when needed, was part of their normal life, which resulted in better stock, and overall healthier stock.
5. There is a thread called: Anyone have luck catching a feral chicken?? The lady would occasionally catch a glimpse of a hen, but it was not hers. She checked with the neighbors, and it wasn't theirs. When she asked family, and neighbors if they had seen the chicken, no one had. She was the only one that saw it. She described it as being like the elusive Sasquatch. The elusive hen has been dubbed Mrs. Squatch. People being chiming in, and in several days, she did catch a bantam rooster, but not the hen she had seen. He's been named Mr. Squatch. The thread has continued growing, and some of us are waiting to see if Mrs. Squatch succumbed to predators, or whether she's sitting on a nest, and will emerge in a few weeks, possibly with chicks. Those that have been watching the thread have been dubbed Squatch Watchers.
I don't know if the first 6 chicks I got were vaccinated, but I know the last 4 weren't.
My first chicks were brooded inside the house and got a respiratory infection that I treated with gse for two weeks, no illness since. If they were vaccinated I wouldn't know, but it's possible because they're hatchery birds.
These last 4 got medicated feed at the breeder, but not from me and were brooded outside. No illness at all. They weren't vaccinated, they're breeder birds instead of hatchery.
Of the two groups I think the second is more robust and growing faster with faster feathering too.
Just like humans they need a strong immune system. Some vaccinations have been found to make things worse rather than better.
My first chicks were brooded inside the house and got a respiratory infection that I treated with gse for two weeks, no illness since. If they were vaccinated I wouldn't know, but it's possible because they're hatchery birds.
These last 4 got medicated feed at the breeder, but not from me and were brooded outside. No illness at all. They weren't vaccinated, they're breeder birds instead of hatchery.
Of the two groups I think the second is more robust and growing faster with faster feathering too.
Just like humans they need a strong immune system. Some vaccinations have been found to make things worse rather than better.
I see an occasional Mareks bird, generally a young one around 5 months. They get culled when it's apparent. It hasn't caused chaos in my flock, just an occasional loss.
x2 with Oldhenlikesdogs
Over the years, I have had what I strongly suspicion was Marek's in a bird here or there. (Since necropsies here cost nearly $100 to send in to the local lab, I did not have them necropsied...sorry...money was tight at the time).
I chose to breed from those that did not show symptoms those years naturally selecting animals that have natural resistance to the strains in my area.
Marek's is a morphing disease and it can create different symptoms depending upon the strain.
The good news is that most backyard owners keep diversified flocks. Some breeds are simply more resistant than others, so it is unusual now for a flock to be totally wiped out by Marek's.
As another poster stated, the Marek's vaccine is actually creating more problems since the vaccine only covers certain strains. The virus is naturally being selected now for the more virulent strains to survive. But that too will be short term as especially virulent strains kill the animals quickly and thus die out....but sadly if it was your flock that year, it doesn't help you much.
And as Lazy Gardener mentioned, the old timer trick was to raise some turkeys along with the chickens. Turkeys naturally carry the turkey strain which is much milder but gives immunity (or resistance) in chickens for the chicken strain. However, the turkeys will be short lived, generally, as chickens can spread back histomoniasis (black head) to the turkeys from the cecal worms in the chickens.
So Marek's is not the end of everything in your flock. Breed from those who survived with no symptoms or few symptoms. Over time, you will have a flock naturally resistant to the strains in your area.
LofMc
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