Vacinations and other meds forever?

[oldhenlikesdogs]

x2 with Oldhenlikesdogs

Over the years, I have had what I strongly suspicion was Marek's in a bird here or there. (Since necropsies here cost nearly $100 to send in to the local lab, I did not have them necropsied...sorry...money was tight at the time).

I chose to breed from those that did not show symptoms those years naturally selecting animals that have natural resistance to the strains in my area.

Marek's is a morphing disease and it can create different symptoms depending upon the strain.

The good news is that most backyard owners keep diversified flocks. Some breeds are simply more resistant than others, so it is unusual now for a flock to be totally wiped out by Marek's.

As another poster stated, the Marek's vaccine is actually creating more problems since the vaccine only covers certain strains. The virus is naturally being selected now for the more virulent strains to survive. But that too will be short term as especially virulent strains kill the animals quickly and thus die out....but sadly if it was your flock that year, it doesn't help you much.

And as Lazy Gardener mentioned, the old timer trick was to raise some turkeys along with the chickens. Turkeys naturally carry the turkey strain which is much milder but gives immunity (or resistance) in chickens for the chicken strain. However, the turkeys will be short lived, generally, as chickens can spread back histomoniasis (black head) to the turkeys from the cecal worms in the chickens.

So Marek's is not the end of everything in your flock. Breed from those who survived with no symptoms or few symptoms. Over time, you will have a flock naturally resistant to the strains in your area.

LofMc

I agree with everything you said except for the turkeys being short lived. Not all soils carry blackhead. I've kept turkeys now for 10 years and I don't have a problem. The turkeys run on the same range as the chickens when I let them out. Sometimes you won't know if blackhead is a problem in your area until you type some.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

@oldhenlikesdogs

Good info from your experiences.

Sorry when I said short term, I didn't mean the turkeys always have to live short lives, but the overall endeavor can result in problems due to the risk of black head for turkeys the longer you raise turkeys.

I agree that doesn't mean that every property will get it but that every turkey/chicken keeper should be aware of the risk.

Glad to hear you've made 10 years with turkeys. (I only lasted 1 year...they were too messy for me!)

LofMc

 

[Lady of McCamley]

...and one trick I use is I have purchased pullets and my brooding Cochins from a local turkey farm.

The breeder uses the birds for feathers for the craft industry so has both chickens and turkeys.

Amazingly, she uses bantam Cochins to hatch turkeys...seriously...you'd think the little Cochin would be high centered on one turkey egg, but she gets about 3 or 4 under them.

My current broodies came from her farm...for the purpose of marek's control in my flock.

LofMc

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

@oldhenlikesdogs

Good info from your experiences.

Sorry when I said short term, I didn't mean the turkeys always have to live short lives, but the overall endeavor can result in problems due to the risk of black head for turkeys the longer you raise turkeys.

I agree that doesn't mean that every property will get it but that every turkey/chicken keeper should be aware of the risk.

Glad to hear you've made 10 years with turkeys. (I only lasted 1 year...they were too messy for me!)

LofMc

They definitely are troublemakers, they harass my chickens, especially the youngsters.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

They definitely are troublemakers, they harass my chickens, especially the youngsters.

LOL. so true.

My husband won't go out to the turkey farm with me anymore. I embarrass him.

This breeder has a large farm of free range turkeys. They greet you in mass (being the curious beings they are). Of course with the gaggle, gaggle, gaggle. They sound exactly like a laughing audience of people.

So, what can you do? I try out my best standing comedy routines on them...they are a great audience, really, they are....the best....thank you, thank you. Gaggle of laughter.

LofMc

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

LOL. so true.

My husband won't go out to the turkey farm with me anymore. I embarrass him.

This breeder has a large farm of free range turkeys. They greet you in mass (being the curious beings they are). Of course with the gaggle, gaggle, gaggle. They sound exactly like a laughing audience of people.

So, what can you do? I try out my best standing comedy routines on them...they are a great audience, really, they are....the best....thank you, thank you. Gaggle of laughter.

LofMc

They also never shut up. They talk over your every word don't they. They are definitely not like chickens, more like a group of kindergarteners, they all have something to tell you about, and want to know what you are doing. That's the main reason mine have a nice pen.

The turkeys probably love your stand up routine.

 

[getaclue]

LOL. so true.

My husband won't go out to the turkey farm with me anymore. I embarrass him.

This breeder has a large farm of free range turkeys. They greet you in mass (being the curious beings they are). Of course with the gaggle, gaggle, gaggle. They sound exactly like a laughing audience of people.

So, what can you do? I try out my best standing comedy routines on them...they are a great audience, really, they are....the best....thank you, thank you. Gaggle of laughter.

LofMc

 

[BantyChooks]

I've been reading posts regarding vaccinations, antibiotics and other health issues with chickens and it seems that most people buy chicks that are vaccinated and who are also put on antibiotics if anything occurs with their health. I've also read, however, that vaccinations are typically sold in large quantities more for commercial farmers. My question is, should backyard chicken owners with a small flock just never let their hens hatch any chicks? Is it better to just always buy new vaccinated chicks? Seems so pointless to not be able to see new generations of chickens come out of your own flock. One non vaccinated chick that may get something from their parents who are vaccinated but still carriers would mean your whole new batch of chicks would then get sick and even if they don't all die, a lot of people say just "cull" your entire flock. Respiratory diseases, mareks you name it. I can't imagine this was the case back in the day. Is anyone successfully breeding stronger birds by breeding those birds that are able to fight off these diseases and able to sustain a constant cycle that way? Is there info somewhere that we can read more about THAT type of chicken keeping?

You've gotten some amazing information already, but wanted to add if it wasn't already suggested---look up Beekissed and read her posts. That lady's a real treasure, she has an extremely healthy flock just by changing management and culling hard.

 

[speckledhen]

I will say this and this is what works for me. I have never used any vaccination nor bought a vaccinated chick to my knowledge from the hatchery other than once, later in my chicken-keeping career, once I got a New Hampshire and a Buff Orp from a feed store shipment that they claimed were Marek's vaccinated, and I got them against my usual policy. I sold them before they laid their first egg, they were such sucky examples of the breed.

No Marek's here, no contagious illness EVER. I will never vaccinate for anything, even if something shows up. So far, so good.

I manage mine by first building healthy immune systems, pretty much like oldhenlikesdogs-good quality dry food-my brand still has animal protein still in it- fresh air, sunshine and as much time on range to forage for themselves as I can with groups that must be rotated, uncrowded and dry inside accomodations. However....I want to say that even when you manage that way and/or you follow all "natural" management, things happen anyway. Your birds are not in a plastic protective dome, right? If you cull any bird who looks funny with no investigation as to what the cause is, you cannot, absolutely cannot say you have never had a sick bird of some sort. I'm not even talking about contagious, mind you, I'm talking common malfunctions of the reproductive system or old-age issues like arthritis or even a simple fungal infection from spores in the air or pneumonia if a specific situation has caused it. Anyone who kills off their birds before two years of age and claims they've never had any illness or any problems specifically because they follow some "all-natural" approach is not really being 100% truthful, IMO, because they simply cannot know. The birds didn't stick around long enough. That's fine if you want to do that without investigating what was wrong, your choice, but some who make blanket statements of 100% perfect health when they really don't know what the problem was, are being misleading. Things happen, even with the best and healthiest management styles. No protective dome, remember?

I am all for natural, absolutely, as long as it's working. When it doesn't, I will not make my birds suffer for a principal.

I do not cull my birds at a certain age, a personal choice. I don't cull one unless there is a human-aggressive rooster (that is super rare because we breed for temperament, have done one in a dozen years) or one that is injured too badly to save. Recently, a tiny bantam hen had what appeared to be a stroke and kept seizing. It was only getting worse after a few days of trying to give supportive care so we euthanized her.

If I felt there was something contagious going on in the flock, then I would separate the symptomatic ones and cull, but it's never happened. So, I have hens who are going on 10 and 11 years old, some are semi-crippled from arthritis, yet some of them still lay every year for a brief period, most with excellent shell quality. Once I stopped getting hatchery stock, and kept good quality breeder stock, reproductive malfunctions almost completely ceased, thankfully, but that is genetic/hormone-based and you cannot fix them with natural anything and certainly not antibiotics. I am fine with giving a chicken antibiotics if there is non-contagious infection. If it's a one-time thing, you are not setting up a cycle of antibiotics because it is not being passed around. I see no reason not to give an antibiotic in that case, but if you want to cull every bird that isn't 100%, that is entirely up to you. Remember, talking non-contagious here. Culling is indicated with contagion, but again, that is a personal decision. Just don't give/sell birds to someone else if they are carriers.

I personally never buy started birds, not even chicks. On this property, there is one EE hen who was given to me at 8 weeks old by a friend who had a squeaky clean flock. She was in quarantine for 8 weeks, just in case. She is now almost 10 years old. I had the few hatchery birds early on who mostly died of internal laying/egg yolk peritonitis or reproductive cancers. I do not trade birds. I do not buy birds. I hatch here, period. It's served me well. I have birds from 6 weeks old to almost 11 years old, all healthy. Old-age arthritis in the hock joints is the only thing that plagues some of my elderly hens and one girl has had her aging reproductive tract betray her, the 10 yr old EE hen whose huge eggs have not had good shells over the past year and tend to collapse inside her, but she is the exception to the rule.

All this said, and sorry to ramble on.....in summary, in my personal opinion, the very best management is fresh air, sunshine, green forage, fresh good quality feed and no unnecessary medications (including, IMO, most all vaccinations). But, for example, if you need to worm them, then worm them with a safe, but effective, wormer because worms can kill birds and the so-called natural wormers are truly only mild preventatives and won't kill the tougher worms like capillaria. This is what I meant when I said do not make them suffer for a principal. Build their immune systems, using the natural methods if you like, plus good, clean, fresh appropriate feed made for the age/function of the bird.

Decide ahead of time how you will handle things if they do happen so you won't be put on the spot and overly-stressed. And then, just breathe! Folks tend to over-complicate chicken-keeping until it is no longer fun.

 

[lazy gardener]

Lots of excellent posts here. I especially enjoyed the turkey stories, and how some are using turkeys advantageously to prevent Marek's in their chicken flocks. Since having my dog on an E-collar, I don't get the wild turkeys parading through the yard like they used to. However, they do occasionally skirt around the perimeter, and they can sometimes be seen parading down the road, or heard in the woods. Perhaps it's time to start putting some cracked corn out to attract both turkeys (for Marek's protection) and crows (for protection from hawks).