Vegetarians ( and Vegans ) Thread!!!

[punk-a-doodle]

Quote: Many homesteaders practice once-a-day milking or other share milking plans where milk is shared with the young dairy animal/s. Debating definitions of "cruel" aside, separating adults and young is not necessary to obtain dairy products.

Quote: Without delving into more abstract arguments on ethics, scientific literature covers relatively painless (this includes accounts from humans who were intentionally or accidentally exposed to them) methods of killing animals, including meat animals. Some of these methods, such as nitrogen gas, are even being implemented by corporations in some countries due to consumer pressure.


I fully support anyone who wants to go vegan, but I also fully support anyone who wants to be vegetarian, omnivorous, carnivorous, or insectivorous.

 

[cassie]

Many homesteaders practice once-a-day milking or other share milking plans where milk is shared with the young dairy animal/s. Debating definitions of "cruel" aside, separating adults and young is not necessary to obtain dairy products.

Without delving into more abstract arguments on ethics, scientific literature covers relatively painless (this includes accounts from humans who were intentionally or accidentally exposed to them) methods of killing animals, including meat animals. Some of these methods, such as nitrogen gas, are even being implemented by corporations in some countries due to consumer pressure.


I fully support anyone who wants to go vegan, but I also fully support anyone who wants to be vegetarian, omnivorous, carnivorous, or insectivorous.

Separating young from the adults is not necessary to obtain dairy products. But in some cases separating the young from the mothers is necessary to raise healthy offspring. A case in point is CAE in dairy goats. CAE is spread in the milk. It will not affect humans who drink the milk but it will cause a lifetime of health problems for the kids that are infected by drinking the milk. CAE stands for caprine arthritis encephalitis. Other reasons to separate dairy calves and dairy goat kids from their mothers are mycoplasma, Johnes, and parasites. To safely raise the kids, any goat milk needs to be pasteurized. When I was raising goats
was able to get around this because I had some Jersey cows. The kids were fed cow milk and the calves were fed goat milk. Worked out well for everybody. I did have my cows tested for Johnes though.

 

[cassie]

Is a newborn calf being pulled away from it's momma humane to you, so the milk that rightfully belongs to the calf can be harvested for human consumption? That's decent? I'm not trying to start a fight. Just sayin' myself.

You have a point. But for the record, a dairy cow produces waaay more milk than a calf can even think of consuming. It is not at all unusual for a good cow to produce over 100 pounds of milk a day. One gallon of milk weighs 8.6 pounds. There isn't a calf in the world that can drink that much. The newborn calf stays with its mother for up to three days and then goes to the calf barn where it is fed milk until weaning. The calves don't mind the separation a bit. As long as it gets fed it doesn't care. Some of the cows do mind and some don't, but even the ones that do forget all about their calves in a couple days or so. The bull calves go for meat. Sorry.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Aye, it is a good to bring up some reasons why young are separated that have potential health benefits to them. The CAE and othe diseases/parasites argument is another issue that is split along personal philosophy lines though. Ie. Some find the health benefits of raw milk and colostrum to a young animal is worth the risk of disease transfer, or desire to allow disease to be a natural herd manager/culler, and instead try to breed stock that are hardy enough to either resist disease or reduce symptoms. Other prefer to pasteurize all milk/formula feed to incur less immediate losses. Goat herds managed both ways can be found from larger breeders and keepers. Both camps of thought have their strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully both camps will continue to be able to raise animals as they see fit.

 

[cassie]

Aye, it is a good to bring up some reasons why young are separated that have potential health benefits to them. The CAE and othe diseases/parasites argument is another issue that is split along personal philosophy lines though. Ie. Some find the health benefits of raw milk and colostrum to a young animal is worth the risk of disease transfer, or desire to allow disease to be a natural herd manager/culler, and instead try to breed stock that are hardy enough to either resist disease or reduce symptoms. Other prefer to pasteurize all milk/formula feed to incur less immediate losses. Goat herds managed both ways can be found from larger breeders and keepers. Both camps of thought have their strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully both camps will continue to be able to raise animals as they see fit.

You haven't dealt with CAE personally, have you? It is a lifelong, painful, disfiguring, and progressive condition. Animals do not develop a resistance to it, although some animals are more severely affected than others. A few animals affected with CAE will never develop symptoms but they will nonetheless pass the infection to any kids that drink their milk, and some animals will test negative that are in fact positive and they will infect kids also. CAE is a retrovirus like AIDS in humans. It is species specific, meaning other animals are not affected, but I would be hesitant to feed CAE infected milk or colostrum to baby lambs. It certainly affects milk production and hard swollen udders at kidding are another symptom of CAE. It is less common now than it was in the past because goat breeders in this country have worked very hard to eliminate it. It used to be that at any goat show you would see the swollen knees that were one of the first symptoms of CAE. In some countries with more regulation of livestock it is now safe to feed raw milk to kids because CAE has been completely eliminated. This was accomplished by a nationally mandated campaign to eliminate the disease once and for all. All goats were tested, and any that tested positive plus all of their offspring, whether they were positive or not, were slaughtered. Testing was mandatory, not voluntary.Testing was not a one time thing either. It was repeated for several years. because an animal may test negatitive once or twice even though it is in fact positive. As for the so-called health benefits of raw milk and colostrum, that is opinion, although strongly held, that is difficult to back up with hard data. I can, however, show you a large goat dairy where the health of the kids improved dramatically by changing from raw to pasteurized milk. Personally, I drink raw milk myself, but my baby goats got either pasteurized goat milk or cow milk from my Jersey cows. I try to stay off the soap box, but CAE control and eradication is an exception.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Nope, but others have and do choose to continue to allow dam-raised kids. I was actually speaking of disease and parasites at large. But in terms of CAE specifically, as you stated, many goats do not show clinical symptoms and husbandry may very well have an impact on this percentage. If this is a good thing or a bad thing again depends on one's perspective and worldview. As an aside, an animal with a disease that causes disfigurement and pain need not suffer from that for life. The stew pot and chopping block are products of one worldview that are often used to keep that from happening.


Quote: I can see how it was not worded very clearly, but that was not meant as a personal statement or scientifically validated fact. Rather, this sentence was illustrating a stance and viewpoint held by a group of people.

 

[ClucksAndPeeps]

Another thing: milk has been shown to steal vitamin d or calcium (can't remember what it is exactly) from bones. I'm not a vegan just for the sake of the animals, but also for health reasons.

 

[ClucksAndPeeps]

You have a point. But for the record, a dairy cow produces waaay more milk than a calf can even think of consuming. It is not at all unusual for a good cow to produce over 100 pounds of milk a day. One gallon of milk weighs 8.6 pounds. There isn't a calf in the world that can drink that much. The newborn calf stays with its mother for up to three days and then goes to the calf barn where it is fed milk until weaning. The calves don't mind the separation a bit. As long as it gets fed it doesn't care. Some of the cows do mind and some don't, but even the ones that do forget all about their calves in a couple days or so. The bull calves go for meat. Sorry.

Huh? Most of them don't mind? I live about a mile from a milk farm, I have seen calves taken away from their mammas that bawl for hours after. And the calves who do it are a big percentage compared to the calves who don't bawl. And yes, the bull calves go for meat, called veal. Bull calves are the by-product of the dairy industry. In most, not all but a vast majority, situations the calves destined for veal live the rest of their 4-5 month life in a cramped crate fed meals that cause scours. Entering the slaughterhouse, they are hit with electric prods and dragged by their legs, and stuck with knives, often while still conscious to "bleed out".

 

[punk-a-doodle]

I think it is great that you are trying to improve your health! An excellent goal to have. A diet rich in whole foods without excess of any food group is a great starting point.

The studies I have seen in relation to bones and dairy have either found no difference in bone health between people who drink milk and those who do not, and/or have not properly implemented controls, controlled variables, or set up good study contexts. Ie. They don't compare unprocessed milk from pasture raised cattle with commercial, processed milk, do not compare exact consumption rates, do not note lifestyle choices between their dairy and non-dairy consuming groups. For instance, the study may have used people on a vegetable-heavy diet for their non-dairy group while the dairy group may have been chosen from those eating a standard American diet of processed foods. Factors such as the overall diet could be the actual contributing factor. I have not seen any studies using genetically similar lab animals to test theories on bone health and consumption of various types of dairy products. There may be some out there though, and I'd be interested in seeing those myself.

 

[cassie]

Huh? Most of them don't mind? I live about a mile from a milk farm, I have seen calves taken away from their mammas that bawl for hours after. And the calves who do it are a big percentage compared to the calves who don't bawl. And yes, the bull calves go for meat, called veal. Bull calves are the by-product of the dairy industry. In most, not all but a vast majority, situations the calves destined for veal live the rest of their 4-5 month life in a cramped crate fed meals that cause scours. Entering the slaughterhouse, they are hit with electric prods and dragged by their legs, and stuck with knives, often while still conscious to "bleed out".

Calves are bawling because they are hungry. I raised the darn things for years. You feed them and they shut up. I used to buy drop calves (newborns) and raised them up to 250 or 300 pounds. There is a lot of publicity about veal crates, but you might be hard pressed to find any. For the record, most of the dairy bull calves don't live four to five months. They go to slaughter immediately. A few get fed out, but most don't. I have no idea what they are processed into at that age. They are kind of scrawny. Gallo, a large dairy complex, raises their bull calves and they are sold for beef, not veal. There was a big push to ban veal crates when I was in California a few years ago. I have no idea whether the legislation went through or not, but in any event, I don't think anyone was still using them. And no matter what kind of calves you are raising, milk fed veal or not, scours is something to be avoided.