We Have Lost Way Too Many Of our 3 month old birds

[3riverschick]

oh sorry but give them some medicated chick starter mannapro and some grit and they should be fine

No they are 3 months old and should be on Grower/Developer not chick starter. That is why I mentioned the Purina All Flock. It can be fed at any age to all sexes. Chicks to egg layers, broilers and stud cocks. Also I worry about the grit if their G.I. tract is inflamed by the worming and antibiotics. Technically, they should be having grit but that does not make this the right time to give it if their G. I. tract is challenged. Best to ask the Purina rep on BYC about this.
If the owner does want to feed an organic Grower/developer here is one by MannaPro
https://www.mannapro.com/products/poultry/organic/organic-grower-crumbles
( but it means 3 different feeds for the flock. one for growers, one for laying hens and one for roosters). Or just 2 feeds: this MannaPro for the growers and an All Flock for the hens and roosters.
Hum.. I just checked Purina's site and I do not see their All Flock listed any more. Hum.
However Nutrena does still make and All Flock pellet with all kinds of good things in it.
For mixed flock older than 7 weeks. The calcium levels are good for all ages too. Here's the URL:
http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/poultry/naturewise-poultry/naturewise-all-flock/index.jsp
Best,
Karen

 

[Newmamabear]

 I have lost 10  8 young pullets & 2 of my roosters they did perfect until thier 3rd month my brother lost 12 young pullets & a rooster Friends we know how to raise chickens & we are stumped as to whats causing the deaths we have put them on Antibotics & we have wormed them with the Piperzine & we spray pour hen houses out every couple of week with bleach I called Cackle & ask them what could be going on & here is the words they use & i quote { We warranty them to be living when they come to me in the mail & if they are dying now Mr. Sturgill it not our problem } end quote  Cackle couldn't have cared any less about my trouble but they sure didn't mind snatching up my @347.99 back when we ordered Cackle could have been less gruffy all i done was tell them what was going on but they just don't care I will say this I WILL NEVER ORDER ANOTHER CHICK FROM CACKLE HATCHERY

Hey Trapper, do you have any birds that survived? Is your brothers birds and your birds housed together? I'm just wondering if the bleach may have had a reaction to the ammonia in their poop, the reaction is strong enough to be harmful to people so do be careful for yourself when using bleach too. Maybe after a few months there was a buildup of ammonia that was sufficient to case a bigger reaction then previous times cleaning the same way. I use vinegar and dishsoap once in a while on the walls but not often and coop is nice and fresh. Anyhoo I just wanted to ask if that may be the cause. If not, does your brother and yourself purchase feed at same time from same place? This may also contribute to some more clues

 

[runt325]

You don't feed chicks Laying Pellets, you feed them Chick Starter!  Layer pellets aren't to be fed to chicks until they're AT LEAST 16 - 18wks, the calcium in it is probably what killed you chicks, not Cackles fault.  Whomever you talked to was insensitive but think it's the feed....

oh sorry but give them some medicated chick starter mannapro and some grit and they should be fine

 

[runt325]

Trapper when did u get the chicks what month date

 

[runt325]

...

You don't feed chicks Laying Pellets, you feed them Chick Starter!  Layer pellets aren't to be fed to chicks until they're AT LEAST 16 - 18wks, the calcium in it is probably what killed you chicks, not Cackles fault.  Whomever you talked to was insensitive but think it's the feed....
[/quote

Sorry didn't read your post right

 

[runt325]

No they are 3 months old and should be on Grower/Developer not chick starter. That is why I mentioned the Purina All Flock. It can be fed at any age to all sexes. Chicks to egg layers, broilers and stud cocks. Also  I worry about the grit if their G.I. tract is inflamed by the worming and antibiotics. Technically,  they should be having grit but that does not make this the right time to give it if their G. I. tract is challenged. Best to ask the Purina rep on BYC about this.
 Best,
 Karen

sorry did not read your post yep u are right

 

[Critterwoman]

I too agree that the cause of the problem could be the feed. I keep my chicks on medicated chick feed for the first 3-4 months, then switch over to regular starter/grower feed until they are a year old, or when they start to lay. I then go to regular layer crumbles for the rest of their lives. UNLESS they are broody at which time i give chicks and mama medicated chick starter/grower until the chicks are 4-6 weeks old. I then keep layer crumbles hung up where the chicks can't get it, and keep the medicated chick starter/grower on the ground where mama AND chicks can reach it.
Hope this helps

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I have lost 10 8 young pullets & 2 of my roosters they did perfect until thier 3rd month my brother lost 12 young pullets & a rooster Friends we know how to raise chickens & we are stumped as to whats causing the deaths we have put them on Antibotics & we have wormed them with the Piperzine & we spray pour hen houses out every couple of week with bleach I called Cackle & ask them what could be going on & here is the words they use & i quote { We warranty them to be living when they come to me in the mail & if they are dying now Mr. Sturgill it not our problem } end quote Cackle couldn't have cared any less about my trouble but they sure didn't mind snatching up my @347.99 back when we ordered Cackle could have been less gruffy all i done was tell them what was going on but they just don't care I will say this I WILL NEVER ORDER ANOTHER CHICK FROM CACKLE HATCHERY

I feel bad for you that you lost birds, it is always devastating (however, I've lost very few birds other than to predation)
It is extremely unfair however, to blame a hatchery for deaths after the birds have been under your care for 3 months. I've only gotten birds from Cackle once, once from Sandhill and twice from Freedom Ranger Hatchery. In all cases, I was happy with the birds I got but if any died a week later, I assumed it was my fault, not the hatchery and certainly not after 3 months.
Every hatchery I know will only guarantee live healthy chicks for 48 to 72 hours, no exceptions. It would be insane for them to do otherwise.

Antibiotics aren't indicated if you don't know which bacterial infection that can actually be cured by antibiotics that they've contracted. The problem could also be viral, fungal, protozoal, nutritional, environmental or one of the many bacterial things that have no cure.
Since you gave antibiotics without knowing what was wrong, I surmise you wormed them without having a fecal sample read to determine if they had worms or what kind you were treating for.

Since Cackle is a hatchery and not a veterinary clinic, it would be unethical to provide you with medical advice.

You agreed to pay $347.99 for X# of live day old chicks. They fulfilled their end of that contract. If you lose birds at 3 months of age, it is a shame but on you - not them.
It is incumbent on you to learn how to care for the animals of which you've chosen to be responsible. It is just out of their control once they arrive in your care.

Cackle's guarantee. "Cackle Hatchery's Responsibility to you as a customer is to provide healthy good quality chicks that arrive to you alive and in good condition."
Did they not do that?


You won't find a hatchery that would care about deaths 3 months later. It happens all the time. If they cared about all the birds they sold that died 3 months later, they would need therapy.
When I hear about birds that I've sold killed by predators, I care and am depressed by that but I'll never sell to that person again nor would I return the person's money.

Pick a hatchery and look up their policy or guarantee.
Here's Freedom Ranger Hatchery's guarantee.
We guarantee the chicks will arrive alive.
That's it.

Here's Sandhill's warranty.
2. CHICK WARRANTY:

We cannot guarantee the chicks past their arrival time. Any losses in shipping must be reported and documented upon arrival (verified on our form by USPS employee). Losses from shipping issues must be reported within three (3) days. Losses that occur after arrival and up to three (3) days will only be credited or replaced. There will be no cash refunds. We also make no guarantees as to how many years your poultry will live. There are too many factors that can alter a bird's egg laying length and life in general.

Meyer Hatchery's policy:
"... We will offer a refund, replace stock, or give credit one time toward any bird that had been properly cared for but had died within 48 hours of time of arrival. While we appreciate notification of losses as they happen, we ask that you report your total losses one time, at the end of the 48 hour period."

Murray McMurray Hatchery's policy:
"POULTRY
LIVE ARRIVAL AND LIVABILITY - For a full guarantee, report to us within 48 hours after arrival, any birds that may have died during this period."

I have built all brand new House & pen & as far as feeding i feed them a 20% Bartlett Laying pellets I have given them the best care as good as any one can do & in some cases i do better than some of the so called Pens were the most nasty & the stench made my sick to my Stomach & i tossed my cookies All of my chickens are well cared for BELIEVE Me my caring of the Chickens isn't the problem I promise you

Oh yes it is. You've just posted the cause. Excessive calcium and protein. If you would send one for necropsy, you'll discover the cause was kidney failure.
How old were the birds when you started them on layer feed?
I've asked you before what state you're in so I could give you the lab information but you haven't responded.
Excessive protein will cause articular gout and excessive calcium will cause visceral gout. Sometimes there are no other symptoms just rapid death, other times they will appear depressed prior to death.
If you cut them open yourself you'll find:
For articular gout there will be swollen foot joints and white pasty deposits around the joints.
For visceral gout the kidneys will be atrophied or one atrophied and the other swollen.

20% protein layer feed (if one were to read the feeding instructions on the label) is intended for laying hens after 18 weeks of age but perhaps more importantly is to be fed as a 3:1 ratio with scratch grains. This makes the resultant diet about 17% protein.
Furthermore, since calcium in such feed is usually about 5% calcium, if not cut with grain that is under 1% Ca, that means they got more calcium than even birds on regular layer feed.

The only thing you can do for them at this point is to try and salvage the few viable kidney segments still functioning.
Switch to a 16-17% grower or 15% finisher feed that are 1% calcium. Grains are under 1% calcium so adding grains to the diet, for the time being, won't hurt because at this age they don't need much protein.
It is essential that they have clean fresh water all waking hours. Water to flush the kidneys is their friend.
You may even want to ferment or even make a wet mash of their feed to further hydrate them.

I was re-reading what I wrote and I was definitely more terse than I could have been and I apologize. It is awful to lose the birds that you have spent months caring for, particularly when you think you are doing it all correctly. Unfortunately, sometimes we can do all that we are supposed to do, even going above and beyond what everyone around us is doing, and still our birds get a disease, swallow a toxin, or generally find some way to die on us.

Until we know for certain what is killing your birds, we can only commiserate with you, not help you. The state lab is the quickest and most definitive way of finding that out. After you know the cause of death, then perhaps people can help you find ways of saving your remaining birds or preventing it from happening in the future. It really is money well-spent if you plan on continuing to raise poultry...some states even have programs where necropsies are free for backyard flocks.

X2

Cackle said it in a way that wasn't right. Money speaks so don't give them another dime and tell people so they won't either.

You went to them for advice and they showed how much they care after you get your money. It would only care a few mins to give advice.

I agree with everyone, try to change the food up and see how that works

There isn't a hatchery on the planet that will guarantee the health of birds after 72 hours since they have no control over their care once the birds leave their property.
They are a hatchery, not veterinarians. The OP hasn't answered any of our questions so you don't know if he gave Cackle any more information. It wouldn't be professional for them or any hatchery to offer medical advice with no lab results to go on even if that was in their realm of expertise or responsibility.
Perhaps the person he spoke with may have seemed insensitive in his mind, but they did nothing wrong and shouldn't suffer their reputation because someone didn't know how to properly feed and care for chickens. They fulfilled their contract by sending live healthy chicks of the breed and sex that he bought. Their responsibility ended there.
The person on the other end of the phone was probably astounded that someone would call to complain after they've had the birds for 3+ months.

I know this unit about the chick help but I would make cackle hatchery give your money back or let u talk to their manger

Why in the world should they give the money back? He's had them 100 days, not 100 hours.
If you find a hatchery that will guarantee birds will live a long and healthy life or money back, please let me know. I'll buy all my birds from them.

Hi,
The buyer has had them almost 3 months and is feeding them improperly. I do believe the improper feed is an innocent mistake and these things so happen. The problem now is how to prevent further damage and fix the situation. It is a tough thing to lose birds when one has spent so much time and money on them. The situation now is how to help the birds.
I do wonder if there could be unnoticed ( by anyone including manufacturuer or buyer) mold in the feed. This is a big concern in the commercial laying industry and they carefully monitor it. Probably need a lab check of the feed to tell. Might even be caused by the humid weather we had this summer( in PA at least). Best to get a bird necropsied and see what is causing it before we throw stones at anyone. Have you called Bartlett?
Best,
Karen

X2
Once the kidneys are atrophied, the damage is irreversible.

Quote:

Hey Trapper, do you have any birds that survived? Is your brothers birds and your birds housed together? I'm just wondering if the bleach may have had a reaction to the ammonia in their poop, the reaction is strong enough to be harmful to people so do be careful for yourself when using bleach too. Maybe after a few months there was a buildup of ammonia that was sufficient to case a bigger reaction then previous times cleaning the same way. I use vinegar and dishsoap once in a while on the walls but not often and coop is nice and fresh. Anyhoo I just wanted to ask if that may be the cause. If not, does your brother and yourself purchase feed at same time from same place? This may also contribute to some more clues

He hasn't answered any other questions. He posted the same thing about losing 10 birds in another thread but didn't answer the 5 people that asked how old the birds were.

 

[casportpony]

I have lost 10 8 young pullets & 2 of my roosters they did perfect until thier 3rd month my brother lost 12 young pullets & a rooster Friends we know how to raise chickens & we are stumped as to whats causing the deaths we have put them on Antibotics & we have wormed them with the Piperzine & we spray pour hen houses out every couple of week with bleach I called Cackle & ask them what could be going on & here is the words they use & i quote { We warranty them to be living when they come to me in the mail & if they are dying now Mr. Sturgill it not our problem } end quote Cackle couldn't have cared any less about my trouble but they sure didn't mind snatching up my @347.99 back when we ordered Cackle could have been less gruffy all i done was tell them what was going on but they just don't care I will say this I WILL NEVER ORDER ANOTHER CHICK FROM CACKLE HATCHERY

Sorry for your losses, but this is not Cackle's problem, and they should have suggested that you consult with a vet. In the meantime, switching them to a food that's appropriate for their age is what you should do.

Avian vet search links:

• http://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
• http://www.majesticwaterfowl.org/vetfinder.htm

If more die you should have a necropsy done or do one yourself:

• State Vets - http://www.usaha.org/Portals/6/StateAnimalHealthOfficials.pdf
• Labs - https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahln/downloads/all_nahln_lab_list.pdf

-Kathy

 

[Cluckcluck1215]

Trapper, sorry for your losses.

But everybody's right.you have NO right to be mad at cackle, it's not there falt.