what color oegb? pic

[sjarvis00]

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henk, I will go look that one up.
Here are some decent photos at different stages from Chicks, adolescents, and adult.

Chick,

Adolescent, Note the steeley grey changes to a dun / kaki appearance as they reach maturity.

Slightly older adolescent male:

Adult Male, this is the dark phase as they come in a range of color from light to dark.

result when crossed with White, diluted color but present, this photo provides a better reference and I do believ it may be related to a red.

 

[sjarvis00]

if anyone is aware of a resource that could substantiate the actual genes assosciated through DNA testing I would be more than interested. I have birds that we have select for chick down color, and culled all others, that is how we stabilized teh breeders. I have birds that run from 5-8 generations with no variety outcrosses.

 

[nicalandia]

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is not lavender nor blue.. not even dun... but recessive to them...

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Wow... such beauty..

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Correct some including me believe that its an allele of recessive white, as it behaves as incomplete dominant to it(as many dominant genes are) but its recessive to black Henk postulate it as C+ > c^op >= c and I am with him in his believes...

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here is the link http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88747&page=4

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I belive Tim can help you

 

[sjarvis00]

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is not lavender nor blue.. not even dun... but recessive to them...

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Manzing...

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Correct some including me believe that its an allele of recessive white, as it behaves as incomplete dominant to it(as many dominant genes are) but its recessive to black

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here is the link http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88747&page=4

Quote:
I belive Tim can help you

Nicalandia,
Thank You greatly fo ryour efforts, I read through the posts on the Coop, I emailed you the only descrepency, on one photo you posted was a bird I breed and gave to teh gentleman who posted the pic. it was a F2 male from teh Opal x Rec. White rather the direct result of teh cross. But its all good.

Tim,
If you can run a DNA on this please let me know so we can lay to rest and quit quessing, The color will be added to a few more breeds next year and it woul dbe nice to have a good solution moving forward for the introduction of teh color to other breeds.

 

[tadkerson]

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I went to the string and read the information provided.

From the initial cross it would appear that the gene is a recessive allele or a hypostatic gene . Black X Black = approximate 1 opal to 8 black ratio

Roy made the following crosses- no information was given concerning phenotype of the male or female or the numbers of F1 produced

opal X black -> all black (this supports the hypostatic opal gene hypothesis)

opal X blue -> all blue This is a troubling cross- this cross should have produced the same results as a black X blue cross (50% blue and 50% black). Assuming the opal gene is hypostatic. For all of the offspring to be blue, there must have been a splash parent in the cross.

If the opal gene was another incompletely dominant allele at the blue locus then the black x opal cross would have produced opal offspring ( it did not do this). If the opal allele is recessive to the blue allele but acts like the blue allele when heterozygous (opal allele/wild type blue allele) then the opal x black cross would have produced blue offspring(it did not); to get an opal phenotype it would require two opal alleles. It may be that the opal gene is not located at the blue locus.

I think the opal x blue cross was contaminated or not enough chicks were produced or one parent was splash.

opal X dominant white -> all white this would support the idea that the dominant white gene was epistatic to the opal gene, you would have to do an F2 cross and keep records of phenotypic ratios to determine the exact relationship between dominant white and the opal gene.

If the F1 cross produced three white to one one opal ratio, then the opal gene is actually a recessive opal allele located at the dominant white locus. If the ratio is 1 opal out of sixteen offspring then the opal gene is not an allele to dominant white.

The dominant white tester would need to be birchen at the E locus, carry melanotic and carry gold: the tester can not carry silver.


opal x lavender -> all black This cross supports the idea that the birds are not lavender (if opal carried lavender, lavender birds would be in the F1). This cross may also indicate that the opal and lavender genes are not alleles. If opal and lavender were alleles, then most likely all of the offspring would have been diluted to a white/gray color and not black. This may not be the case- if a lavender/opal organism is actually black; then some serious research could answer the question.

All of the F2 crosses produced opal offspring which in itself is good to know but without ratios it does not help solve the problem.

homozygous

From the information provided it is still unclear what is actually causing the opal phenotype. It would seem that the opal gene is hypostatic to other genes and not a recessive allele to blue or lavender. It could be a recessive allele to dominant white.



According to the pictures in the other string, the first two birds posted in this string are opal. The other two pictures in this string appear to be lavender ( their tall feathers have a black rachis) and the male does not have reddish/yellowish dark gray in the crow wing pyle zone . The opal birds also have clear beaks- the other pictures have non yellow color in their beaks. And then, I probably am wrong and there may be enough variation in the birds that some may have lavender like characteristics???????????.

PS. I went over to the Coop and read the information. I think the relationship between the opal gene and dominant white and the opal gene and recessive white needs clarification. Most likely the gene is an allele to a diluter. But it could be a virus inserted into an E locus allele also. The key to finding the answer is in the chick down and segregation in the F2. Other crosses could also be made after the F2 segregation.

Tim

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
is not lavender nor blue.. not even dun... but recessive to them...

Quote:
Manzing...

Quote:
Correct some including me believe that its an allele of recessive white, as it behaves as incomplete dominant to it(as many dominant genes are) but its recessive to black

Quote:
here is the link http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88747&page=4

Quote:
I belive Tim can help you

Nicalandia,
Thank You greatly fo ryour efforts, I read through the posts on the Coop, I emailed you the only descrepency, on one photo you posted was a bird I breed and gave to teh gentleman who posted the pic. it was a F2 male from teh Opal x Rec. White rather the direct result of teh cross. But its all good.

Tim,
If you can run a DNA on this please let me know so we can lay to rest and quit quessing, The color will be added to a few more breeds next year and it woul dbe nice to have a good solution moving forward for the introduction of teh color to other breeds.

Sorry, I no longer work at the university. I think a serious breeding regimen and some time can be used to determine what is going on.

Tim

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I went to the string and read the information provided.

From the initial cross it would appear that the gene is a recessive allele or a hypostatic gene . Black X Black = approximate 1 opal to 8 black ratio

Roy made the following crosses- no information was given concerning phenotype of the male or female or the numbers of F1 produced

opal X black -> all black (this supports the hypostatic opal gene hypothesis)

opal X blue -> all blue This is a troubling cross- this cross should have produced the same results as a black X blue cross (50% blue and 50% black). Assuming the opal gene is hypostatic. For all of the offspring to be blue, there must have been a splash parent in the cross.

If the opal gene was another incompletely dominant allele at the blue locus then the black x opal cross would have produced opal offspring ( it did not do this). If the opal allele is recessive to the blue allele but acts like the blue allele when heterozygous (opal allele/wild type blue allele) then the opal x black cross would have produced blue offspring(it did not); to get an opal phenotype it would require two opal alleles. It may be that the opal gene is not located at the blue locus.

I think the opal x blue cross was contaminated or not enough chicks were produced or one parent was splash.

opal X dominant white -> all white this would support the idea that the dominant white gene was epistatic to the opal gene, you would have to do an F2 cross and keep records of phenotypic ratios to determine the exact relationship between dominant white and the opal gene.

If the F1 cross produced three white to one one opal ratio, then the opal gene is actually a recessive opal allele located at the dominant white locus. If the ratio is 1 opal out of sixteen offspring then the opal gene is not an allele to dominant white.



opal x lavender -> all black This cross supports the idea that the birds are not lavender (if opal carried lavender, lavender birds would be in the F1). This cross may also indicate that the opal and lavender genes are not alleles. If opal and lavender were alleles, then most likely all of the offspring would have been diluted to a white/gray color and not black. This may not be the case- if a lavender/opal organism is actually black; then some serious research could answer the question.

All of the F2 crosses produced opal offspring which in itself is good to know but without ratios it does not help solve the problem.



From the information provided it is still unclear what is actually causing the opal phenotype. It would seem that the opal gene is hypostatic to other genes and not a recessive allele to blue or lavender. It could be a recessive allele to dominant white.



According to the pictures in the other string, the first two birds posted in this string are opal. The other two pictures in this string appear to be lavender ( their tall feathers have a black rachis) and the male does not have reddish/yellowish dark gray in the crow wing pyle zone . The opal birds also have clear beaks- the other pictures have non yellow color in their beaks.

Tim

where is the data on Opal x Recessive white? people that have done the cross ALWAYS produce white birds with som degree of Opal..

 

[tadkerson]

I would like to see the information. The information on the two forums does not match- at least in my brain, maybe I missed something. Take a look at my ps on the first post.

Tim

 

[nicalandia]

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scroll down to where twin lake poultry reply about using recessive white crosess

http://www.bantychicken.com/cgi-bin...ard=unrecognized&op=display&num=2877&start=45

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
scroll down to where twin lake poultry reply about using recessive white crosess

http://www.bantychicken.com/cgi-bin...ard=unrecognized&op=display&num=2877&start=45

Here is the information from the other forum.

We chose a hen line recesive white for a few reasons knowing what we expected but with type and feather quality inprovement as the goal.
Color can always be put back in but without proper type and feather they are not OE.
I expected color fade or loss and leg color problems same as you will get with any other varity cross but for type improvement as the goal the variety used was less important than the end result which will be variety improvement, and eventual recognition.
The Opal proved to be an incomplete dominant, it made a diluted appearance with the recesive white, while it haas been proven recesive to balck, and dom. white.
All of the F1 offspring from the Rec. White did demonstrate some color less in males than females, not to say it is sex-linked as that is a whole other story just the pattern of inheritance.
As for yellow legs? I dont understand where that would even come from in OE bantams. The white OE bantams have a silvery white leg and all of the offspring have always had some light but still slate leg color, the last generation has brough leg and eye color full circle and returned more color.
As with any improvement projet this is not a 1 or 2 generation thing they all require 3 generations to start to see improvment and 5-7 to get where you are close and years of comitment to make it happen.


Too many proves in the post. In the area of research, you never prove anything- you have data that supports your position. Just a picky point on my part.

Recessive white is problematic, you never know the genotype of the bird. Is the bird extended black or wild type, does the bird carry genes for patterns, is the bird silver or gold, is the bird barred. ?????????

To come to a better answer about how the opal gene works- you will have to know the genotype of the recessive whites. If the female recessive white bird was a barred, silver, dark brown and columbian restricted bird (no melanotic) and was crossed with an opal male - the adult F1 males will show a ton of white without the opal gene.

From what I have seen, the opal males express more color than the females- especially in the crow wing pyle zone. In the opals, it appears that the gene has less control over the pyle zone and enough control over the E locus to render the E locus as if it was not signalling. The males appear to have some non gray color in their hackles and other areas of the pyle zone- this would indicate some signalling by the gold allele or "autosomal red". The opal allele also has some control over the melanotic gene because the males pyle zone is diluted from a black to a gray color.

There may be a relationship between the recessive white gene and the opal gene. From what I can gather from the cross, it appears they are alleles. It would take an F2 cross and knowing the genotypes of the opal and the recessive white to come to some conclusion.

Tim