What's wrong with their feathers?

[alicefelldown]

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[kathyinmo]

aveca,
Please do continue. I really enjoy your posts!

 

[aveca]

So my question is.......

Did these birds or should say breed in general just happen by osmosis?

Or was there a founding breed?

Was it a natural south american breed, ?

or was it intorduced by the prehistoric travelers?

so...what I got out of a lot of digging through scientific papers this was the answer of sorts.
the breed in general decended from a slikie feathered rumpless bright blue egg laying bird..names of authors above.

 

[aveca]

Quote:
Oh no problem, were not fightin we are just discussin things ,,somewhere inbetween lies the truth..Im as curious as anyone about this beautiful breed of bird. Im just speculating out loud. I might sound insulting in some way but really Im not. I couldnt take my eyes off the breed when I saw them at the chicken shows there is something different about them..

Just my opinuon but these guys have something very special going on. If It were me I would run with it. which they seem to be trying to do..And they should record thier thought about it. and results should be recorded too. Some people might be real interested in what they get if they get to the level I think they can

 

[alicefelldown]

Quote:
Aveca, I'm questioning your claim of 'hair like feathers' in the South American blue layers. You've mentioned this a few time now, but have not provided a source. We all know they were rumpless, that is not being questioned.

Quote:
Quote:
You keep going back to Prado and Latcham - yes, I can see your quote in bold on the http://araucanabreeder.freeservers.com/photo4.html page. However - that page does not discuss or mention (outside of the bold line) their findings. Do you have any other links for this claim? Please believe me, I've looked far and wide for their findings but have been unable to locate them. Do you have any other links to mentions of hair-feathered South American blue layers? You say you are 'digging through scientific papers' - do you have a copy of the above referenced Prado and Latcham findings?

If you have actual proof (genetic or historical or otherwise) that Oriental Silkies have anything to do with South American blue layers (or that SA blue layers have ever had hair-like feathers), then I'll gladly eat my hat. Until then, a single bold sentence with no data to back it up does not count as proof and I would like to politely ask that we stop derailing this fine thread with hearsay. Thank you.

 

[aveca]

QUOTE:
Aveca - Chile is a large country, with many different weather 'zones'.

So is USA where california quail dont live in east coast. the west coast blue jay looks nothing like east coast blue jay.

In those days there were not border lines and signs and birds think nothing of crossing the today country border line that they cannot understand birds just go where they are comfortable ignoring any person imposed border of a country. the article said PERU. MAINLY CHILE, AND A HANDFUL OF OTHER COUNTRIES had them... .the entire coast of peru, chile, and the rest of the countries along the costal dryerareas probably had thier own versaions of this rumpless probably slim feathereded bird. they and again You can only speculate been different colors according to different regions.

 

[averytds]

I think maybe what aveca is trying to say is that there are other options outside of a mutation.

Like when two parents of one race have a child of another race. When they examine their family trees, they find no evidence of the other race ever having entered into their lineage, but their child is proof that somewhere it did even though it had never presented before that set of parents and their just right genetic mixture. It's extremely rare, but is not an actual genetic mutation or defect.

I think the post regarding the rumpless silkie haired blue egg layers is interesting. Even with the differences described between the actual silkie feather and these feathers, at that point in time anyone knowing of silkies and then seeing one of these birds would have used the same description. If they were extremely rare as noted and no further study was done, it doesn't mean they didn't exist. How many new species are discovered every year between the rain forests and the ocean? How many are now extinct? Maybe their feathers put them at such a disadvantage they died out long ago.

Much like the extremely rare cases of the parents of one race having a child of another it's possible that something similar happened with these birds. That in this instance the genetic mix was just right to allow it to present.


As to the whole flying/roosting issue, I see that as a possible advantage to some. None of the silkes, brahmas or brahma Xs we've owned roost or fly. It's not an issue. None of our standards do anymore either. We just have to keep our nest boxes low or provide ramps. Some benefits are not having freezing issues in the winter and the ability to easily confine them with shorter fences.

 

[SteveH]

Quote:
While I've never saw any mention of the SILKIED , rumpless , blue egg laying birds in the articles you referred to , perhaps I missed it . There is no way of knowing where and when the blue eggs originated , nor the exact origin of the genetics behind Julie's birds actually . Some of their [ Julie's birds ] ancestors came from a breeder selling what appear to be EEs as Ameraucan . I have my own theories on origin of the texture of their feathers ; I'm reasonably sure AFD has another theory and would be offended by mine LOL . It actually is a mute subject , even well known and accepted theories on ALL genetics are still only theories and exceptions to the rules of known genetic theories occur frequently . Usually these exceptions are referred to as mutations rather than to question the validity of our own so called knowledge and accepted theories . So ........... please enjoy these chickens ; and peace out

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
Your opinion alice ...
proof???? This is a forum, not a scientific study.

I don't think the thread is derailing, and find the information quite interesting. The BYC forum has many threads that do get side-tracked from time to time. Most don't find that to be a problem.

In this case, I find aveca's information quite informative and interesting, and asked her to continue posting. You should be mindful of that, and just skip over the posts you don't want to read or don't care about. You don't need to comment about them or decide if the post is, "on topic." Just pass by them ....

 

[alicefelldown]

I am not saying the links Aveca has been posting are not interesting, I'm pointing out that they do not say what Aveca is quoting them as saying. I humbly suggest that you go back and reread their links. I welcome your help if I've missed something in those links.

The issue, is that there is NO information available about any 'rumpless silkie haired blue egg layers' from South America. Aveca has been quoting a single sentence referring to Prado and Latcham's findings - which do not exist in any findable way online. Those 'findings' aren't even discussed on the link that has the troublesome sentence!

The only mention for for Prado and Latcham's claim for Oriental Silkies in South America is the book "Araucana Poulterers Handbook" by David Caudill (1975). This is the book that Aveca's link says their information is from. I have not been able to find this book, in months and months of searching library catalogs and the internet.

One would think that if these findings by Prado and Latcham are true, that there were 'hair-feathered blue layers', that more places and organizations (esp. the breed clubs) would mention them. It's possible that their findings were nothing more than a theory published back in the 70's, akin to the theories that the earth was flat. We simply don't know and it's a disservice to make claims that because a single sentence exists on a web-page that is the ultimate truth on the matter.

Again, please let me know if I've missed something in the posted links - but also keep in mind, the full text (and not just the header) of the links that have been posted by Aveca do not contain any mention of hair-feather birds or Oriental genotypes in South American / Easter Island chickens.

Kathyinmo, I have to ask, do you believe everything you read online? If I start making websites that claim I own a herd of cows that lay upwards of 5 eggs each a day - you would be right in asking for some kind of proof! Yes this is a web forum. That doesn't mean we should throw critical thinking out the window. This isn't about opinions. I'm sorry if I'm offending you by seeking answers. Please feel free to skip over my posts if they bother you, as you have kindly suggested.

That being said, it is quite literally true that there were hidden recessive genes in the bloodline of these birds (which we've tracked back to pre-2003 via seller emails that are all posted earlier in this thread) that produced these feathers. No one is questioning that. The only undecided part is to determine if we are looking at the h gene (silkie type feathers) or fr (fray type feathers) - which would be 100% confirmed by DNA sampling. One could also reach a decent conclusion by test breeding with a true Silkie bird, but that would be months away from now. (Onthespot has offered to try this if she is able to get the Julie birds to hatch)

A mutation isn't always necessarily a Bad Thing. If I say 'genetic change' or 'polymorphism' does it become less of an issue? Polymorphisms are responsible for many of the normal differences between people such as eye color, hair color, and blood type - and it works the same way with smooth feathers, silkied feathers, frizzled feathers, frayed feathers. There are genes responsible for each of those - red hair, blue eyes, barred feathers, rose combs.