When is it no longer a cross?

[The Yakima Kid]

The definition of a breed is that it breeds true the majority of the time, which means 51% or more.

No, a breed had better be true more than 51% of the time. I've seen better results than that in equines with animals that are at least half grade ancestry using careful selections of stallions. But these foals are still grade animals - even if they appear to breed true to the sire's breed.

 

[Naamahbengals]

It doesn't directly hurt me - it hurts the breeds. I am afraid it is passing ridiculous when someone decides to breed Ayam Cermani by crossing them to a non-FM breed in order to increase egg production; or to decide that colors are an important attribute for Seramas. Call them something else, then - but they are no longer Ayam Cermani nor Serama.

I think you have to remember that at the start of *every* breed of bird, there is outcrossing to other birds that don't share all desirable traits. It's not about what undesirable traits are tossed in to the first group of generations - it's about how well the breeder selectively eliminates the unwanted traits and keeps the improvements. Do you think no farmer in Indonesia ever cross a Cemani with another breed to improve a trait, and bred back? Of course they did, and I bet they did so often, before we ever heard of their breed of chickens.

Think about it another way. If a breeder bred Cemani but picked the lighter-skinned ones... or with redder combs... for generations, until they had a bird that didn't look like a Cemani at all - but never once used a different breed. Would you call that a Cemani, since it's 'pure-blooded'? Versus a breeder who cross breeds for a higher egg count and then breeds back to Cemani until it walks and talks like a Cemani (with a better laying count)... That's just one example.

I guess what I'm saying is - people need to relax about diehard-purebloodism. You shouldn't care what it was crossed with in it's past as long as the 'finished product' breeds true to the standard (or original tradition, in yet-unstandardized breeds like the Cemani).

 

[tadkerson]

Genetics 101

It all depends on the genetics of the bird if it will breed true. Chickens that have a standard that is determined by humans and not genetics can be disappointed in the out come. The prime example is found in incompletely dominant traits. Cross two birds that are blue ( not self blue) and all the offspring will not be blue. The offspring will include blue, black and splash. The offspring will express the breed type but not the correct variety.

The black skin trait that is a characteristic of the ayam cemani ( and over 25 other mostly asian breeds) is due to the interaction of three different genes two are autosomal dominant and the other is a recessive sex-linked trait.

An individual can cross a black skin female ( homzygous for fibromelanosis and white skin) with a gray skin male ( homozygous for fibromelanosis and white skin) and produce a mixture of black skin males and females along with gray skin males and grayish white skin females. This is due to the sex linkage of the recessive dermal melanin gene located on the Z chromosome. The grayish skin female offspring are fibromelanotic but the female offspring must also carry a dermal melanin allele to have black skin; the female light skin offspring do not carry dermal melanin. The male that was crossed carried a recessive dermal melanin allele and an incompletely dominant dermal melanin inhibitor allele.

Males must carry two of the dermal melanin alleles while female can only carry one. This allele (dermal melanin) is expressed through dosage compensation in the female; males that carry the dermal melanin inhibitor allele along with the fibromelanotic gene will have gray skin ( hue of color can vary).

Other characteristics of the breed have not been documented but there is an observed association between black face etc and the birchen allele and the extended black allele. As I stated earlier, this trait ( a dark face) appeared in a few of my own birds; the parental birchen female ( spitzhauben) did not have a dark face.

Tim

 

[Bullitt]

No, a breed had better be true more than 51% of the time.

I would want better results than that also. But this is just the basic standard.

Here is an example.

"The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg chicken, or Easter Eggerr, as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn’t fully meet any breed description as defined in the APA standards. Further, even if a bird (that possesses the blue egg gene) meets an APA standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken."

 

[The Yakima Kid]

I think you have to remember that at the start of *every* breed of bird, there is outcrossing to other birds that don't share all desirable traits. It's not about what undesirable traits are tossed in to the first group of generations - it's about how well the breeder selectively eliminates the unwanted traits and keeps the improvements. Do you think no farmer in Indonesia ever cross a Cemani with another breed to improve a trait, and bred back? Of course they did, and I bet they did so often, before we ever heard of their breed of chickens.

Think about it another way. If a breeder bred Cemani but picked the lighter-skinned ones... or with redder combs... for generations, until they had a bird that didn't look like a Cemani at all - but never once used a different breed. Would you call that a Cemani, since it's 'pure-blooded'? Versus a breeder who cross breeds for a higher egg count and then breeds back to Cemani until it walks and talks like a Cemani (with a better laying count)... That's just one example.

I guess what I'm saying is - people need to relax about diehard-purebloodism. You shouldn't care what it was crossed with in it's past as long as the 'finished product' breeds true to the standard (or original tradition, in yet-unstandardized breeds like the Cemani).

If people wish to create a new breed, they are free to do so. But messing about in very small genetic pools and claiming that the resulting birds are from the original rare breed strikes me as fraud. Ever noticed the large number of Jersey Giants that don't have yellow soles?

There are already excellent layers out there. Breeding the Ayam Cemani for "better egg laying" is akin to attempting to turn Cornish into heavy egg layers. There is no real point to it because breeds were developed for specific purposes and breeding away from that purpose means it isn't that breed. It is very interesting that in at least one of the Scandinavian countries there are no standards akin to the APA standard, and characteristics such as production, use, temperament, adaption weigh heavily in determining the breed.

 

[tadkerson]

I would want better results than that also. But this is just the basic standard.

Here is an example.

"The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg chicken, or Easter Eggerr, as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn’t fully meet any breed description as defined in the APA standards. Further, even if a bird (that possesses the blue egg gene) meets an APA standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken."

The 50% is the product of the expression of the blue allele. Blue x blue = 25% splash 25% black 50% blue

Tim

 

[Bullitt]

The 50% is the product of the expression of the blue allele. Blue x blue = 25% splash 25% black 50% blue

Tim

Okay.

That doesn't change the fact that a breed breeds true the majority of the time. A cross does not breed true the majority of the time.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: And even if blue does not breed TRUE, it does breed RELIABLY. You KNOW what options you will get, and the probability of getting each of the three options.

 

[Naamahbengals]

I think there are exceptions for known colors or etc that do not breed true every time, and it's expected that the trait that produces *for* the standard but that isn't IN the standard will be present in breeding flocks. As an example... I breed Bengal cats, and melanistic is not an approved color for the breed. However, the visual charcoal trait is a combination of the charcoal gene paired with the melanistic gene, so it's expected that breeders who's programs focus on that will often have melanistic kittens and will keep melanistic breeding cats.