When it all goes horribly horribly wrong. Dogs and goats.

[jak2002003]

You have to re home the dog.

He is prey driven.. by the accounts you have described such as pacing fences and fixating on the animals.

Sure you can train him not to go after the animals when you are about.. but if he ever gets loose on his own he will go for the animals.. its just in your dogs nature.. he is not consciously being bad. Now he has had the thrill of the hunt he will always crave it... and no treats or training or petting will come close to the reward he will feel when he is hunting the animals.

The other option is to build a large secure dog run for him to live in... but you need to let him out for a run with you every day or I think its cruel to keep a dog confined all its live in a run.

So sorry for your goats.. wish you good luck with their recovery.

 

[drumstick diva]

I agree - maybe the police department would like him it's just a different kind of prey - he'd probably excel.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

You can certainly work with a dog, but some dogs can just never be totally trusted. I agree that putting up some electric fencing around the goats is a good immediate solution. I do think you may have a long road ahead, but certainly not one that is impossible.

Please don't use Cesar Millan as a resource though. There are multitudes of research that has been published showing why his methods are dangerous and inappropriate. While they may "work" (and I use that word loosely) for some dogs, they mostly teach learned helplessness, which is not what you want in a well behaved dog that is enthusiastic to learn. I can post many, many articles for you if you are interested. I do know the veterinary behaviorists are slowly but surely moving away from dominance based training.

I would definitely consider consulting with a positive reinforcement trainer, one that is experienced with training farm dogs to avoid livestock or even one that trains herding. You don't have to stick with JUST pos reinforcement, but you do want to train in a way that gets the dog engaged with you. Using punishment only is a good way for a dog to start showing agression and unpredictable behavior to you, family, or other animals. (Not pointing fingers and saying this how you were planning to train, just giving a general warning!)

I'm sorry you had to deal with this though. Luckily it seems the goat was not seriously injured (though I know the injury probably looks horrible!) and I'm glad you were not injured either. If you have doubts about the dog and your future, I certainly don't think it is wrong to consider rehiring him to a family without livestock.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I follow Cesar Milan, most people apparently don't understand his methods, as it's more about learning dog language and speaking to dogs in their language, as opposed to trying to teach dogs the human language. If you understand his ways you would find them brilliant. I have raised every dog using his methods, mine are well behaved and happy.

It's not a dominance based method like the good old days of chock collar yanking, it's building a relationship with a dog based on you being the leader, all dogs need a leader, all dogs need structure, all dogs need appropriate exercise. Many don't get these things and become neurotic dominant because of it, which shows itself in many horrible ways, like excessive barking, fighting, house soiling, separation anxiety, I could go on with behaviors that are merely because an owner doesn't understand how to read or communicate with their dogs.

People seem to take away from Cesar that it's about dominating, it can start that way for dogs that are far gone and have had no structure or guidance their whole lives, that's what you see on his show. Most dominating is done by controlling a dogs space, it's very similar to chickens, a dominant dog moves others out of their way and has first say. I am able to keep a pack of female dogs together, 5 of them without them constantly fighting, and they actually enjoy each other and play all day.

I know I won't change people's mind about Cesar Milan, but if you are interested in really understanding his methods you will have wonderful dogs who are more interactive and intelligent, and are free to use their minds for other things besides trying to hold on to their dominant position, and trying to burn of excess energy in a destructive manner. My dogs respect my decisions, my dogs are never hit or punished beyond the shttt sound, my dogs are happy and well adjusted, I love Cesar Milan.

 

[HnkyDnkyZZFarm]

You can certainly work with a dog, but some dogs can just never be totally trusted. I agree that putting up some electric fencing around the goats is a good immediate solution. I do think you may have a long road ahead, but certainly not one that is impossible.

Please don't use Cesar Millan as a resource though. There are multitudes of research that has been published showing why his methods are dangerous and inappropriate. While they may "work" (and I use that word loosely) for some dogs, they mostly teach learned helplessness, which is not what you want in a well behaved dog that is enthusiastic to learn. I can post many, many articles for you if you are interested. I do know the veterinary behaviorists are slowly but surely moving away from dominance based training.

I would definitely consider consulting with a positive reinforcement trainer, one that is experienced with training farm dogs to avoid livestock or even one that trains herding. You don't have to stick with JUST pos reinforcement, but you do want to train in a way that gets the dog engaged with you. Using punishment only is a good way for a dog to start showing agression and unpredictable behavior to you, family, or other animals. (Not pointing fingers and saying this how you were planning to train, just giving a general warning!)

I'm sorry you had to deal with this though. Luckily it seems the goat was not seriously injured (though I know the injury probably looks horrible!) and I'm glad you were not injured either. If you have doubts about the dog and your future, I certainly don't think it is wrong to consider rehiring him to a family without livestock.

I've definitely heard the mixed reviews of dominance theory training. If he were pushy or entitled or overly concerned about sleeping spaces, or pack dynamic with our other dog or wasn't so good on leash, I might consider it, but even as I type he's on the line, sitting with great fervor. He keeps turning and sitting, hoping someone's seeing how good he's being. If I just sit hard enough maybe this is all a big misunderstanding... He's clueless. I made the mistake of thinking the fence running would be self limiting and gave him some slack since he's got the herding dog in him and to chase and bark is their thing. The neighbors herding dog has a greet charge where he comes barreling at you full speed trumpeting like a hound on a trail all the way and then sits at you. He's older and he's experienced with horses and sheep so he's grounded, has a good head on his shoulders. In mixed breeds we muck up their drives, get their wiring screwed up and then the predictable behavior you hope for doesn't always come through and the undesirable ones get louder. I'm competing with the voices in a dogs head and they speak a language I don't and I can't turn them off.

It was herding behavior gone mad. I think his frustration at being ignored by the goats may have played a part. All in all they were very confident of the fence line.

He would be a great buddy dog for a single guy, women love him, he loves women, and he would probably get more spoiling on than he gets as a farm member where we are pretty tight about extras. Someone who had the desire to keep him from rolling in anything and everything could make a house dog of him with some effort. He crates well, he just needs a home without livestock and a fence he can't see through. I've been easing my better half into the topic because it will be a big step, but right now I'm really feeling like this is something we need to take steps on. I'm not doing this again, and even with rigorous supervision, there is no guarantee that we wont come home to him having figured out how to get out of the crate (secure today, but really? One oversight from tragedy). I thought that fence was tight. Boy was I wrong. I also have a feral cat that lives in the barn and I would be DEVASTATED if something happened to her. I can buck up about a goat, but the cat would break my heart.

The goat... I don't want to jinx him. He's eating, he's been a doll baby to handle, super willing to be helped, I've been able to get right to cleaning and checking with no fuss. The ear seems to be running its course, it's almost a blessing it's mostly gone instead of a large open wound. We're also super lucky it's not summer. Otherwise flies would add a whole nother element to the situation. Thanks again for everyone putting up with my vent/rant. It's sort of morbid and my S/o has been hearing my running train of thought ever since and is pretty burned out on it. It helps to be able to put it to words though.

 

[Beekissed]

I follow Cesar Milan, most people apparently don't understand his methods, as it's more about learning dog language and speaking to dogs in their language, as opposed to trying to teach dogs the human language. If you understand his ways you would find them brilliant. I have raised every dog using his methods, mine are well behaved and happy.

It's not a dominance based method like the good old days of chock collar yanking, it's building a relationship with a dog based on you being the leader, all dogs need a leader, all dogs need structure, all dogs need appropriate exercise. Many don't get these things and become neurotic dominant because of it, which shows itself in many horrible ways, like excessive barking, fighting, house soiling, separation anxiety, I could go on with behaviors that are merely because an owner doesn't understand how to read or communicate with their dogs.

People seem to take away from Cesar that it's about dominating, it can start that way for dogs that are far gone and have had no structure or guidance their whole lives, that's what you see on his show. Most dominating is done by controlling a dogs space, it's very similar to chickens, a dominant dog moves others out of their way and has first say. I am able to keep a pack of female dogs together, 5 of them without them constantly fighting, and they actually enjoy each other and play all day.

I know I won't change people's mind about Cesar Milan, but if you are interested in really understanding his methods you will have wonderful dogs who are more interactive and intelligent, and are free to use their minds for other things besides trying to hold on to their dominant position, and trying to burn of excess energy in a destructive manner. My dogs respect my decisions, my dogs are never hit or punished beyond the shttt sound, my dogs are happy and well adjusted, I love Cesar Milan.

I agree! All his methods I've tried have been successful and I find not a thing wrong with his methods, having viewed many, many of his shows. I find that the people who do not like Cesar's methods most often are those that feel dogs shouldn't be disciplined for anything. That it's somehow cruel to not let them dominate the home, the couches, the kitchen and the bed.

I'm using his methods on a young LGD right now, having heard from quite a few other LGD owners that those methods "just won't work" on that breed and it will break his trust and spirit to use them. Trust and spirit is fully intact and the dog is responding to these methods like a charm and is even anticipating what I may want and learning things I never taught to him about being patient, giving space and showing respect. He's been living with the chickens since 8 wks of age and is now almost 7 mo. old and we've not had a single incident of harm or chasing of the chickens. I trust him fully and leave for three days at a time, twice a month, with him and an older dog on guard with my flock and I don't even worry a second what he may be doing at home.

I've even tried his methods on my older dog, seeing if I could teach him new things and they work with him as well. It's not a bit about dominance, it's about knowing what a dog wants in a leader and trying to be that strong leader. Folks can say what they want, that Cesar knows dogs.

 

[HnkyDnkyZZFarm]

I follow Cesar Milan, most people apparently don't understand his methods, as it's more about learning dog language and speaking to dogs in their language, as opposed to trying to teach dogs the human language. If you understand his ways you would find them brilliant. I have raised every dog using his methods, mine are well behaved and happy.

It's not a dominance based method like the good old days of chock collar yanking, it's building a relationship with a dog based on you being the leader, all dogs need a leader, all dogs need structure, all dogs need appropriate exercise. Many don't get these things and become neurotic dominant because of it, which shows itself in many horrible ways, like excessive barking, fighting, house soiling, separation anxiety, I could go on with behaviors that are merely because an owner doesn't understand how to read or communicate with their dogs.

People seem to take away from Cesar that it's about dominating, it can start that way for dogs that are far gone and have had no structure or guidance their whole lives, that's what you see on his show. Most dominating is done by controlling a dogs space, it's very similar to chickens, a dominant dog moves others out of their way and has first say. I am able to keep a pack of female dogs together, 5 of them without them constantly fighting, and they actually enjoy each other and play all day.

I know I won't change people's mind about Cesar Milan, but if you are interested in really understanding his methods you will have wonderful dogs who are more interactive and intelligent, and are free to use their minds for other things besides trying to hold on to their dominant position, and trying to burn of excess energy in a destructive manner. My dogs respect my decisions, my dogs are never hit or punished beyond the shttt sound, my dogs are happy and well adjusted, I love Cesar Milan.

What I will say FOR him, is that he is a large man with an authoritative vibe who demonstrates leadership, starting with the dogs human pack and I'm sure he is capable of making any dog safe WITH HIM, but I don't think that's entirely method and I don't think just anyone can be successful with his method. I have a friend who is a huge Ceasar fan, but emulate as he may, dogs don't respect him and he's that utility guy that gets attacked often. He's not an assertive person by nature.

I don't think the issue is respect so much as a drive that shorts out all other conscious thought.

If they ever have a caesar challenge where they put him a jack russel and a jack rabbit in the same room and set off a string of firecrackers... I'd watch. I might even sell tickets. I could shout advice too... haha. That's a funny. I had someone shouting good advice over the fence while I was trying to catch the dog on goat crisis. Every problem is simply academic from the other side of the fence.

 

[Beekissed]

I agree. That's why he says he trains humans and rehabilitates dogs. People who lack resolve can't seem to use his methods as they keep trying to change the dog and the dog isn't the problem. I've used his methods on dogs completely strange to me and saw immediate results, but their owners can't seem to do the same. I think you really have to MEAN it in order for it to work, and many feel their dogs won't like them anymore if they expect them to behave. I've found it's just the opposite and their dogs are real happy to see me, no matter how much time has elapsed, and they remember how they are to act around me...calm and mannerly.

Same thing works for children. For some reason kids just love me and I'm not one to spoil children. They have to mind around me but they also know I love kids and I engage with them, so I'm the most popular auntie. I'm also the only auntie that enforces discipline, so that whole theory that the kids will not like you if you make them mind just goes right out the window. Kids crave boundaries and love feeling secure inside those boundaries..and so do dogs. Even chickens seem to thrive on knowing someone else is in control and there are rules to be followed...makes them feel safe, I guess.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

The issue with any training method that uses the terms "alpha" or "respect" is that it relies on this pack theory, and evidence based research has shown that domestic dogs do not exist in a pack. They recognize humans as different from themselves. Yes, I definitely think learning dog language is important. However, you have to remember with any TV trainer you are only seeing a highly edited bit of what actually happened with each animal. (A TV show was filmed at my school for nat geo and they did an excellent job but the amount of editing that goes into TV is astonishing. It's very easy to make something seem very different from how it actually is)

Again, I'd be very happy to provide the science to back up my claims if anyone is interested. I don't train my dog 100 percent positive reinforcement and I've definitely learned from mistakes (heck, I'm still learning), but I do a lot of reading in scientific journals to keep up with the latest info about dog behavior and I change my approach accordingly. I'd be happy to email the veterinary behaviorist at my school as well to see if she has any good articles to recommend.

I won't continue to clog up the thread going back and forth, but I'd be happy to talk to anyone via PM if they want. The decision is always up to the owner, but I'm always up to give info to better help others make their own decisions.

OP, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your goat! Eating is a good sign!

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I don't follow science much when raising animals or children. I pretty much trust to God and common sense. If it helps, I was using my own methods long before I'd ever heard of Cesar Milan and they were working. A lot of his methods coincide with what I've found that works in my own back yard, so I don't mind offering them as good methods to those who might need them.

I rarely ever reach for a book or a TV episode when I need to find out if something is true or works, I just try it out on my own to see if it works. If it works, I share it. That it works and works for years and years, on various and sundry animals, is proof enough for me.