When it all goes horribly horribly wrong. Dogs and goats.

[donrae]

Hnky---

I'm not going to chime in with advice, etc. You sound like a solid animal person who understands animal behaviors so I don't think you really need advice, just maybe affirmation and support? I just want to say I've read this thread and really feel for you, especially the sense of betrayal from the dog. You work with an animal and think you're good, and then we forget they're really predators and sometimes they just get overwhelmed by their instincts. I'm with you, I have a high self-protective drive and have absolutely NO desire to place myself in a situation where I may get bit. Have you seen those teeth? They can do massive damage!

I hope this has a decent ending for the dog, that you can find a more appropriate home for him.

And your poor one-eared goat will have a great story to tell the rest of the herd all his life

. I'm happy to hear he's healing up well. You're right, winter is the best time for injuries like that. Flies...

.

 

[donrae]

I don't want this to go BSL, and invite those with an axe to grind to share it, so it is sufficient to say the other half is a terrier breed.

What does BSL mean? All I'm coming up with is black sex link, and I'm thinking that's not right

 

[dainerra]

What does BSL mean? All I'm coming up with is black sex link, and I'm thinking that's not right

Breed Specific Legislation, also called Breed Banning.

To the OP. fence running actually increases aggression and can lead to acting out due to frustration. Some dogs will even redirect to humans, other dogs or inanimate objects on their side of the fence to ease their frustration.
Honestly, unless they are a breed specifically bred (and proven through generations of working ancestors) most are going to eventually act like dogs - that means that they will chase things down and bite them.

 

[donrae]

Thank you, I just couldn't figure that one out!

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

It's definitely easy to feel defeated, and I've been there before. Give yourself and few days and see how you feel. Sometimes making a decision when things are still emotional can lead to a decision you'll regret later. However, I think most people here will agree that retraining, rehoming, or even euthanasia are acceptable answers for dogs that are considered dangerous.

I know for myself, consulting a trainer often helps me make decisions about training. It may also help you decide what to do in this case.

The reason your dog is ignoring you during a chase is not because he's being bad but because what he is doing is more rewarding than responding to you. I know how frustrating that is, but you can make yourself more rewarding. Of course, as you've already heard, there are both positive and negative ways of attaining this. Repetition is definitely a huge key to success. I think after a while, a response gets hard wired into a dog's brain and response to a command becomes almost automatic.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have options, though I suppose none of them are easy. It may take a year or more of hard work and training for you to ever feel comfortable with your dog around livestock. You may always feel less trusting of the dog and that could definitely affect your training as well.

I know rehoming a dog isn't always easy either, and may take just as long. It never hurts to work with a dog while trying to rehome him, especially since it can take a while to find a suitable home for a dog that has behavior problems. You can also work on making your fence line more secure, or creating a new space for the dog to stay. I think you said the dog is two? That's still a pretty young dog, and he may need more exercise to help stop the fence line chasing. Tired dogs tend to stay out of trouble because they are too tired to do anything else.

As I mentioned before, there are some dogs that you just can't trust, but there are a lot of things you can do even in that case.

 

[CrazyTalk]

The fact that you state the dog ran the fence incessantly shows you have a long hard road getting this dog to respect livestock.

Yeah, this is a huge red flag, and allowing the dog to continue to do it is enforcing the behavior.


Every second is training for a dog - allowing this sort of stuff is training the dog to chase the livestock (and this is a fight I keep having with my mother-in-law when she puts one of the dogs out on the back porch and he gets bored and eats the grill cover - shes training him to destroy things- he can stay in a kennel if you can't watch him)

 

[CrazyTalk]

Please don't use Cesar Millan as a resource though. There are multitudes of research that has been published showing why his methods are dangerous and inappropriate. While they may "work" (and I use that word loosely) for some dogs, they mostly teach learned helplessness, which is not what you want in a well behaved dog that is enthusiastic to learn. I can post many, many articles for you if you are interested.

Cesar Millan has a very long history of dogs needing to be euthanized after being on his shows because the behaviors get worse. He's had several dogs die in his training program (basically worked to death). He's had a history of lawsuits after dogs maul people. His methods not only don't work, they're dangerous and irresponsible.

 

[Catharina]

Yes, the fence running was not a good thing, but she had him SO well trained & nothing had ever happened all that time. What an upsetting thing to have happened!

 

[Catharina]

You're managing this in a really thoughtful & rational manner, so soon after the event too! You're amazing! I've had 3 dogs during the time I've had chickens & had an easy time desensitizing them to each other with the first 2 dobie mixes. Not only did my usual technique not work on my 3rd dog, a puny little terrier mix, I'm pretty sure nothing else would work either, at least not well enough to leave her alone in the yard with the hens. Julie's always trying to chase our house cats, (who after the previous dog are unimpressed with her) also despite the usual plan to avoid any agitation on either side, till they just become part of the scenery to the dog.(well, they did to the other dogs anyway!) The glazed look in her eyes as she darts back & forth in front of the hen house is almost like she's possessed, that's why I know she'll never lose her varmint hunting terrier drive. If your dog is a herding dog mix, he still might've tried to attack your goats even if you had never allowed him to"chase" them from the other side of the fence. (I watched part of a sheep herding competition, mostly looked like Border Collies, & they'd bite & snap at the sheep if they wouldn't cooperate. There was actually blood on the sheeps' back legs.) He might just be wired for that like my terrier's wired to grab ahold of anything that looks like it might be a varmint. Julie doesn't look like herself when she gets that way. It's more the look of a wild animal, although with us she's just an overgrown puppy who loves tummy rubs &still wets her pants when we come in the front door. She used to hang out in the pen with my San Clemente Island Goats when she was a pup, but when she got bigger she started to chase them & grab their legs. Pretty quickly my buck figured out what his horns are for! (his horns are HUGE-ever seen photos of the breed? they used to be trophy hunted when they were feral on the island.) Now I have a rooster to help protect the hens if need be. Gee I've really rambled on here, haven't I? I'll stop now I promise! I'm sorry you & your dog & goats had to go through this, but glad your goat is recovering. Good luck to you-you seem like the kind of person who's good at solving tough problems.

 

[Mini Meat]

Sorry this happened to you.

The fact that he hounded the goats...Bad.

The fact that he attacked the goats...Worse.

The fact that he went into a totally frenzy and was completely out of control... I just would not have that in my life once it had been reveled.

If at any point you feared more than just getting accidentally bitten If you feared he was so frenzied that he may have actually turned on you... man I'd be done with that dog.

Some breeds of dog are fine, great pets until they are not and then things go horribly, horribly wrong.