Which breed would you choose from my list to get into breeding??

[Cattle dog Mom]

Local breeder here (in Hawaii, where EVERYTHING, including chickens costs more...)
sells hatching eggs for $8 each and UNSEXED day old chicks for $20 each.

Which just goes to PROVE that location is everything. I've been talking with a breeder in my area (which means in the middle of nowhere in eastern WA. She doesn't sell chicks, she is breeding to further her program, so she grows out ALL of her hatchlings. Then sells whan she doesn't want/need for her program in the fall for $10 to $20 each. (for pullets of a rare breed.)

 

[PNWskye]

Which just goes to PROVE that location is everything. I've been talking with a breeder in my area (which means in the middle of nowhere in eastern WA. She doesn't sell chicks, she is breeding to further her program, so she grows out ALL of her hatchlings. Then sells whan she doesn't want/need for her program in the fall for $10 to $20 each. (for pullets of a rare breed.)

Which breed? I live in WA by Puget Sound.

 

[Cattle dog Mom]

Which breed? I live in WA by Puget Sound.

Russian Orloff

 

[HeatherKellyB]

If you HAD to pick between the two?!
About how much can you sell chicks for?
I’m hearing that CCL can be more on the difficult side of breeding?

The CCL are more well known and desired. They're generally sexable at hatch, but you have to be careful with breeding to keep this trait. I have a pullet that absolutely looked like a cockerel at hatch, but surprise! She wouldn't be good for a breeding program, but I really like her shading that's quite different from my other CCL pullet that was an obvious pullet at hatch. What part of breeding CCL is difficult?
If I had to choose between the two of these breeds, I'd go with CCL.

Silverudd's Blue are not nearly as popular. They're absolutely gorgeous birds, in fact, one of the most gorgeous birds in my opinion, but if I'm not mistaken, it's not so easy to get them to SOP. I feel like you'll spend quite a bit of time working on getting a pair that's SOP, unless you acquire a pair that already is a very nice an accurate example of the breed. Then you'd want to add some of each of the colors. Depending on your market, I feel like you'd probably be able to ask higher prices for this breed, but searching for a market isn't always an enjoyable task or even something you'd want to do.

A lady near me sells chicks for $10 each

 

[FuzzyCritters]

What part of breeding CCL is difficult?

It's not breeding Legbars that is difficult, it's getting them to the SOP. Legbars have a lot of faults and quality stock is hard to find.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It's not breeding Legbars that is difficult, it's getting them to the SOP. Legbars have a lot of faults and quality stock is hard to find.

Are you aware of an SOP approved by the APA (American Poultry Association)? Are CCL's an approved breed in the US? Last I heard a consortium was working to get them approved but had not totally agreed on what the SOP would look like. One area of disagreement was egg shell color. The UK SOP allows both blue and green eggs. Should the US follow or should they just require blue? The OP, Sunnie7, is in Indiana (thanks for providing that info) so the US SOP is the one that counts, if there is one. If there is not an approved SOP how do you know what you should be breeding towards?

Same question for the Silverudd Blue. The only SOP I'm aware of is in Sweden. There is an American club but I could not find an SOP of any kind on their site. Maybe they have one or maybe they are working on one. But until the APA approves a breed there is no approved SOP to breed to. @sunnie7 if you go to the club site you can find breeders.

Also, if you were getting hatching eggs to get a small breeding flock started how many would you get?

I'm not sure how much you understand about breeding to the SOP. It's not easy. You have to understand what the traits in the SOP look like, that is not always obvious from reading the description or even looking at photos. Attending shows and maybe being mentored by a good breeder can really help. The better stock you start off with the better off you are but even great breeders do not hatch a chick worthy of entering a show from every egg. They get many that don't quite meet the standards. That's where skill comes in. They have to know enough to be able to pick the best breeders every generation. And they have to hatch enough chicks to get a good selection. I'll repe) at, this is important, they have to hatch enough chicks to get a good selection.

One problem with getting hatching eggs or baby chicks from a good breeder is that some of the chicks that hatch will not be that good for a breeding program. Some breeders don't even sell hatching eggs or baby chicks because they only want their best associated with their reputation. They want to pick which chickens the public sees as theirs. Some will sell hatching eggs or baby chicks but some will not. They might sell a breeding pair or trio instead, a rooster and one or two hens of their choosing. That's the way you get the best quality stock. As soon as you select which chickens get to breed it is no longer their line but yours. If you don't know how to select the best breeders pretty soon your flock isn't that much better than hatchery quality.

Their rejects or chicks from hatching eggs are still going to be really good quality compared to hatchery quality chicks, it's not a bad place to start. But to get top quality chickens bred to the SOP you need to know how to select your breeding chickens. The good breeders that can breed well enough to win chicken shows get top dollar for their product. It's well deserved from the work they put into it and the cost to do that right. To hatch enough chicks and grow them to the age they can determine how good they actually are is not cheap. I doubt any of them actually make a profit from that even at their prices. What the good ones do is more about their passion for the breed than it is to make a profit. Whoever said breed what you like is absolutely correct.

Once you get good quality chickens you run into a genetic diversity issue. The initial process of creating top quality chickens involves getting rid of genetic diversity in the traits that you do not want diversity. Say you are breeding for a black chicken, you don't want any diversity that gives you a chicken of a different color. Of is you are breeding to a floppy comb you don't want genetics that give you a stiff comb. That involves inbreeding. But too much loss of genetic diversity in other traits can have a harmful effect on the flock. Things like fertility or vitality. There is a bit of a fine line there. Breeders have techniques to manage that. A popular method is spiral breeding. Once they get the genetics where they want this method involves keeping three different breeding lines of the same breed and rotate the hens and roosters that get to mate from different lines in a certain manner. This requires a lot of record keeping and breeding pens.

Another aspect of this is that if you are breeding for show you may not necessarily be breeding to the entire SOP. You might just be breeding for the SOP traits that the judge sees. An easy example is that the judge will not see the egg shell color, especially with roosters that don't lay eggs. There are several traits a breed should have that the judge doesn't see, some physical like egg shell color and some behavioral. If you are trying to win a chicken show and you have a choice between a hen with a certain flaw but she lays the right color/shade of egg and another hen that can win a grand prize but does not lay the right egg shell color/shade, which would you choose? If you go to a heritage site that lists endangered chicken breeds you will see a lot of familiar breeds. Hatcheries have them, they are commonly shown at chicken shows. But that heritage site may say they are endangered because there are only a handful of flocks in the country that meet the breed requirements. What they are talking about are these traits the judges don't see. I'm not trying to criticize people that win chicken shows, what they do is remarkable and hard. Breeding for all those show traits and the other breed traits is even harder.

I know this is way too long for a Sunday morning. I have no idea how you plan to sell hatching eggs or chicks. If you try to mail them, especially out of state, you run into regulations. I don't know how many you want to sell. I don't know what price your market will stand or how you will advertise the eggs or chicks. There is a lot more to running a business like this than just getting chickens and hatching eggs. I don't think you want to get all that involved, you are more looking for something easier. I would be.

My suggestion is to pick one breed you like, get hatching eggs or baby chicks (maybe two dozen so you can pick your better breeders, you never now how many eggs will hatch or what genders baby chicks will be) or get a breeding pair or trio of the best quality your budget will allow, and get started. There will be a learning curve, so hop on that journey.

Good luck!

 

[PNWskye]

The CCL are more well known and desired. They're generally sexable at hatch, but you have to be careful with breeding to keep this trait. I have a pullet that absolutely looked like a cockerel at hatch, but surprise! She wouldn't be good for a breeding program, but I really like her shading that's quite different from my other CCL pullet that was an obvious pullet at hatch. What part of breeding CCL is difficult?
If I had to choose between the two of these breeds, I'd go with CCL.

Silverudd's Blue are not nearly as popular. They're absolutely gorgeous birds, in fact, one of the most gorgeous birds in my opinion, but if I'm not mistaken, it's not so easy to get them to SOP. I feel like you'll spend quite a bit of time working on getting a pair that's SOP, unless you acquire a pair that already is a very nice an accurate example of the breed. Then you'd want to add some of each of the colors. Depending on your market, I feel like you'd probably be able to ask higher prices for this breed, but searching for a market isn't always an enjoyable task or even something you'd want to do.

A lady near me sells chicks for $10 each

I hatched two CCL and thought one was a male. One was clearly lighter, disconnected stripe down the back, and white spot on the head. Gave “him” away for free, and “he’s” laid an egg before the girl I did keep. It was my first experience with them. You’re right though, that one wouldn’t be ideal for breeding. See pic!

There is no SOP for Silverudd’s Blue (just a breeder’s guide) I’ll attach that too. They sell for $15-$20 each here. I bought one (a splash) last spring for $20, and it’s a boy!I'm having him tested to see if he is homozygous for the blue egg gene, which I don’t have confidence he is. Hoping at least heterozygous !!

 

[sunnie7]

Are you aware of an SOP approved by the APA (American Poultry Association)? Are CCL's an approved breed in the US? Last I heard a consortium was working to get them approved but had not totally agreed on what the SOP would look like. One area of disagreement was egg shell color. The UK SOP allows both blue and green eggs. Should the US follow or should they just require blue? The OP, Sunnie7, is in Indiana (thanks for providing that info) so the US SOP is the one that counts, if there is one. If there is not an approved SOP how do you know what you should be breeding towards?

Same question for the Silverudd Blue. The only SOP I'm aware of is in Sweden. There is an American club but I could not find an SOP of any kind on their site. Maybe they have one or maybe they are working on one. But until the APA approves a breed there is no approved SOP to breed to. @sunnie7 if you go to the club site you can find breeders.

Also, if you were getting hatching eggs to get a small breeding flock started how many would you get?

I'm not sure how much you understand about breeding to the SOP. It's not easy. You have to understand what the traits in the SOP look like, that is not always obvious from reading the description or even looking at photos. Attending shows and maybe being mentored by a good breeder can really help. The better stock you start off with the better off you are but even great breeders do not hatch a chick worthy of entering a show from every egg. They get many that don't quite meet the standards. That's where skill comes in. They have to know enough to be able to pick the best breeders every generation. And they have to hatch enough chicks to get a good selection. I'll repe) at, this is important, they have to hatch enough chicks to get a good selection.

One problem with getting hatching eggs or baby chicks from a good breeder is that some of the chicks that hatch will not be that good for a breeding program. Some breeders don't even sell hatching eggs or baby chicks because they only want their best associated with their reputation. They want to pick which chickens the public sees as theirs. Some will sell hatching eggs or baby chicks but some will not. They might sell a breeding pair or trio instead, a rooster and one or two hens of their choosing. That's the way you get the best quality stock. As soon as you select which chickens get to breed it is no longer their line but yours. If you don't know how to select the best breeders pretty soon your flock isn't that much better than hatchery quality.

Their rejects or chicks from hatching eggs are still going to be really good quality compared to hatchery quality chicks, it's not a bad place to start. But to get top quality chickens bred to the SOP you need to know how to select your breeding chickens. The good breeders that can breed well enough to win chicken shows get top dollar for their product. It's well deserved from the work they put into it and the cost to do that right. To hatch enough chicks and grow them to the age they can determine how good they actually are is not cheap. I doubt any of them actually make a profit from that even at their prices. What the good ones do is more about their passion for the breed than it is to make a profit. Whoever said breed what you like is absolutely correct.

Once you get good quality chickens you run into a genetic diversity issue. The initial process of creating top quality chickens involves getting rid of genetic diversity in the traits that you do not want diversity. Say you are breeding for a black chicken, you don't want any diversity that gives you a chicken of a different color. Of is you are breeding to a floppy comb you don't want genetics that give you a stiff comb. That involves inbreeding. But too much loss of genetic diversity in other traits can have a harmful effect on the flock. Things like fertility or vitality. There is a bit of a fine line there. Breeders have techniques to manage that. A popular method is spiral breeding. Once they get the genetics where they want this method involves keeping three different breeding lines of the same breed and rotate the hens and roosters that get to mate from different lines in a certain manner. This requires a lot of record keeping and breeding pens.

Another aspect of this is that if you are breeding for show you may not necessarily be breeding to the entire SOP. You might just be breeding for the SOP traits that the judge sees. An easy example is that the judge will not see the egg shell color, especially with roosters that don't lay eggs. There are several traits a breed should have that the judge doesn't see, some physical like egg shell color and some behavioral. If you are trying to win a chicken show and you have a choice between a hen with a certain flaw but she lays the right color/shade of egg and another hen that can win a grand prize but does not lay the right egg shell color/shade, which would you choose? If you go to a heritage site that lists endangered chicken breeds you will see a lot of familiar breeds. Hatcheries have them, they are commonly shown at chicken shows. But that heritage site may say they are endangered because there are only a handful of flocks in the country that meet the breed requirements. What they are talking about are these traits the judges don't see. I'm not trying to criticize people that win chicken shows, what they do is remarkable and hard. Breeding for all those show traits and the other breed traits is even harder.

I know this is way too long for a Sunday morning. I have no idea how you plan to sell hatching eggs or chicks. If you try to mail them, especially out of state, you run into regulations. I don't know how many you want to sell. I don't know what price your market will stand or how you will advertise the eggs or chicks. There is a lot more to running a business like this than just getting chickens and hatching eggs. I don't think you want to get all that involved, you are more looking for something easier. I would be.

My suggestion is to pick one breed you like, get hatching eggs or baby chicks (maybe two dozen so you can pick your better breeders, you never now how many eggs will hatch or what genders baby chicks will be) or get a breeding pair or trio of the best quality your budget will allow, and get started. There will be a learning curve, so hop on that journey.

Good luck!

WOW!!!! I’m going to reread your advice a few more times, thank you so much! Yes, after hours and hours researching and still so much more to go my goal isn’t going to be to breed towards an SOP standard (at this point in my life anyways!!!) I leaning strongly towards the Silverudd Blue now anyways. I just want to start off selling locally and I think any “colored” egg layer around here will sell well. I’m not really looking to make money but I’d like to be able to sell what I don’t decide to keep for closer to $8-10 vs $3-4. Last year I hatched out mixed breeds from my flock and sold them for $4 each to friends and a few extra olive eggers $8 and lavender Orpingtons for $10. I was very happy with that!

 

[FuzzyCritters]

Are you aware of an SOP approved by the APA (American Poultry Association)? Are CCL's an approved breed in the US? Last I heard a consortium was working to get them approved but had not totally agreed on what the SOP would look like. One area of disagreement was egg shell color. The UK SOP allows both blue and green eggs. Should the US follow or should they just require blue? The OP, Sunnie7, is in Indiana (thanks for providing that info) so the US SOP is the one that counts, if there is one. If there is not an approved SOP how do you know what you should be breeding towards?

The Cream Legbar Club has proposed an SOP for legbars. That SOP is what U.S. breeders are working toward. The CLC is working to get that SOP accepted into the APA, and I doubt any drastic changes will be made to it. It is always possible things will change, but for now there is an SOP for breeders to work toward.

 

[HeatherKellyB]

It's not breeding Legbars that is difficult, it's getting them to the SOP. Legbars have a lot of faults and quality stock is hard to find.

Thank you for this reply. That makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question